Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

I have yet to find Biblical support that Jesus or God requires us to give up control of our lives; but I do feel he taught that we are to choose a path of right behavior.In this thread I would like to address Biblical support for the teaching of surrendering one’s life to Jesus/God.Within large civilizations smaller groups tend to have specialized vocabulary. Those who work in various science fields have their specialized terms and phrases, the same with medical, construction, sports, clerical, religious, etc.We run into this problem quite a bit on this board. We see it constantly with the word faith. I request that when using the words surrender, faith, belief or any other word that you are using that may have a different meaning in the religious usage than the common usage.In one article I read concerning surrender the author stated: "Surrender" is just another word for "faith," or another word for "dependence.".I feel that teachings like this only serve to confuse and make it harder for some individuals to understand the teachings of Jesus because those teaching may or may not be using the most common usage of the words; or they may or may not be using them correctly to express the meaning intended.When one is told to surrender one’s life to Jesus, the word surrender implies giving up power or control of our lives.I don’t feel that Jesus taught that we should give up control of our lives, but I do feel that he taught that we should give up wrong behavior.In our dictionaries today, surrender also carries a meaning of yielding oneself to an emotion, influence, or course of action.IOW, if I choose to follow the teachings of Jesus, then I will change my actions accordingly; but I’m not giving up control of my life.Just as when we have to change our diet for health reasons. We aren’t surrendering (giving up) control of our life to the doctor, but we are choosing to surrender (yield) to the course of action the doctor recommends.This is not a discussion about faith (any of the meanings), belief (any of the meanings), or salvation (Christian interpretation).It is a discussion on what is written in the Bible that does or does not support that Jesus or God requires us to give up control of our lives.Bible Study.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The Greek word "paradidomi" is translated as surrender once in the NAS. But it isn't in relation to Jesus or God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Romans 6:12 and 12:1 in context would are examples of the less common usage of the word surrender. It describes yielding ourselves to a course of action, which would be God's commands or right behavior.Paul is talking with Gentiles and is trying to teach them that following God's commands are better for them. One still has control of their lives, but chose to give up wrong behavior and do the right behavior suggested by God.James 4:7 is an example of what we do every day. We yield to the governance or authority of our employer, governments, peers, clubs, etc. Do people feel they lack control or power over their lives because they yield to various authories? (rhetorical question)None of the above teachings were from Jesus, so we have to remember the viewpoint from which they are presented.In John 3, when Jesus is talking with Nicodemus, he is discussing being born again. Being born again is a Jewish concept that doesn't bring with it the idea of giving up control or power over your life. The idea implies life changes such as a Gentile converting to Judaism or a Bar Mitzvah. What I read in this account is Jesus speaking of a spiritual or mindset change. Again it is an example of choosing to yield to a course of action.When you read Matthew 25:34-36 you see that Jesus is referring to our behavior towards others. So the King will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will separate those who are kind to others as described in verses 34-36 from those who don't. We always have the choice of how we wish to treat others. If you want to be one of the sheep, you base your actions accordingly. Just like if you want to be a part of a sports team or a club, you have to meet the requirements to participate. If you want a certain job, you have to meet the requirements. If you want to be a part of God's Kingdom you choose whether you want to me the requirements or not.I don't see Jesus implying that we are to give up control or power over our lives.In reality, even those who have supposedly given control of their lives to Jesus really haven't. IMO, they have simply chosen to follow his teachings.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Now if you have been born again. That means that you have been bought with the blood of Jesus and the suffering he did at Calvary.

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I understand the practice of combining unrelated verses to create a third meaning, which is fine for sermons; but when I study what the writers in the Bible are saying I try to understand what the author was saying within the single writing.The conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus in John 3 concerning "born again" dealt with spiritual change. A choice that one makes, not that is made for them.In Romans, Paul is trying to teach Gentiles that following God's commands are better for them.In 1 Corinthians, Paul uses slave analogies to teach right behavior. He is addressing specific circumstances and questions addressed to him.Real slavery is involuntary servitude, subjecting one person to the power of another. Most slaves were considered chattel, that is, property that can be bought or sold.I feel that Paul was being methaphorical and not literal. I say that because his earlier writing to the Galations concerning the law Paul writes: So while Christians are not literal slaves with no control or power over their lives, following the teachings of Jesus does mean that Christians yield to the course of action taught by Jesus.Paul is dealing with people who have converted to Christianity, but haven't got all their ducks in a row when it comes to behavior (1 Corinthians 3). He uses language that will make an impact on his audience.Paul has shown several times in his letters that he is a supporter of self-control.I see how people can pull verses out to create the teaching of surrender (give up control), but I still don't see that surrender (give up control) was truly part of Jesus' teachings or required by God. Paul is not Jesus or God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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...it is a scary thing to surrender control to another, even God. But how could you call Him "Lord" if you didn't intend to serve Him? He has no intention of abusing His servants. He loves us. He who cannot lie has said

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The point is that neither Jesus no God asks that we give up control of our lives. They do ask that we choose to follow God's commands because it is a better way of life, which is what Jesus is referring to in Matthew 11. Following Jesus and learning from him is an easier path to following God's commands than that of the Jewish teachers with their fence around the Torah. His way does not put unneccesary burdens on the followers.Now there are things in life we can't control, such as the weather and other people; but we can control our response to those things.IMO, the psychology behind the teaching of "giving control to God" is essentially saying to accept that there are things we cannot change. We can only change the things we have the power to change. (que sera sera)

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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What does that mean? Doesn't following someone else's commands mean giving up control in some sense? Especially if there's punishments for not following those commands?

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Exactly! What does that mean? What are they teaching when they tell people today to give up/surrender their life to God/Jesus?So have we given up control of our lives because we choose to follow our local laws, which have various consequences attached to them? (rhetorical question)Have we given up any control in our lives because we choose to follow the guidelines here at EvC which have consequences if we don't? (rhetorical question)When you take on a job and have to follow the company policies or bosses orders, have we given up control of our lives? (rhetorical question)I don't feel that I gave up control of my life when I joined the military. I took on a job which had specific rules and consequences if rules are not followed. If I didn't want to follow the rules, I wouldn't have joined the service.So I don't see that choosing to follow what we know of Jesus' teachings and commands, constitutes giving up control or power over my life. Choosing right behavior isn't giving up control, IMO.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Think about it. We are going to have free will. Jesus never took away free will. But if we freely decide to follow God's commands, we are freely choosing to do the right thing even when we don't want to. You may not call this surrender. I simply can't see what then would be considered surrender.

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Someone else made the comment of doing right when we don't want to, maybe it was you, but maybe that's why the term surrender.You look at Paul's scenerio as surrender, I see it as understanding. He came to understand that what he was doing was wrong. Jesus may have taken drastic measures to get his attention, but I don't get the impression from Paul's letters that he still wanted to kill Christians, but refrained only because he chose to follow Jesus.I guess if a person still wants to do wrong behavior, but does right behavior only because they decided to follow God's commands out of fear or desperation; then it would be a form of surrender. Kinda like when conquering nations impose their ways upon the conquered nations.To me that means that right behavior doesn't get "written on their hearts", but wrong behavior is. If that is true, then those people will always struggle and probably won't mature spiritually.Of course that means that people who naturally want to do what is right have no need to surrender or even have a need for God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The light burden comments dealt with what Jesus supposedly said in Matthew 11, which some feel deals with the oppressive obervance of the Jewish precepts of the time. I wasn't commenting on whether it was a true statement. Jesus' expectations were easier than dealing with the fence that was put around the Torah.

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What you describe sounds more like "if I just agree to be a good person and stop sinning, can I be saved?"

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I'm also not talking about salvation.

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One thing I might add is that God never gives us any burden too great for us to bear. I can look it up if you'd like. He knows our limits and loves us.

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According to Paul, not Jesus or God:

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I'll also mention the example of Moses. Moses was very reluctant to do God's bidding. (see Exodus 3-4) But God persuaded him, and as a result God had "excuses" to bless and reward Moses.

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This story isn't dealing with right behavior or wrong behavior, but a specific job God gave to Moses.When it comes to the teaching on surrendering one's life, I'm thinking of the "average Joe".

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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You already know that a person has to admit they are wrong. Next step, surrender mentally to the right way. Give up your 'own' way.

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I understand those programs, but I think it is understanding that one is wrong, not just admitting.If someone admits that they are wrong, not because they understand or agree that their actions are wrong; then yes, they would have to surrender to what someone has told them is right and give up their own way even if they don't understand and only do it to avoid the consequences. But how long will that mindset stick?Ultimately they have to understand and agree that their actions are wrong or not beneficial and then choose to follow the correct or beneficial behavior. In this instance the mindset has a better chance of sticking.

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The point of spirituality is to get to the place where you are in agreement with the conqueror even when you don't understand him.

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I disagree obviously. IMO, spirituality is understanding what behavior is beneficial for the individual and the civilization they reside in. I don't feel that spirituality grows well in a conquered mentality.

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How many of these people can you find? Who naturally wants to do what is right? If a person gets so lucky as to have this state of mind, doesn't that mean that they have already found God?

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They are out there. It doesn't necessarily mean they have found God.Even those who need more time to get to that state of mind don't necessarily need God to do it.As Jesus supposedly said in Matthew 9:12:

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I still would not say that you have made a case that is strong enough for me to believe that following God is not allowing him to control a life. It is not forcible control that is true, but the whole concept of surrender is IMO entirely Biblical.

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My contention in the OP was: I think Jesus' statements to come and follow him are along the lines of yielding to a better course of action, but not giving up power or control over one's life. I don't see that his disciples demonstrated that they had given up power or control over their lives.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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I am still looking for this practical example of what a person who has 'given up control' of their lives will look like. In relation to God that is, not a physical ruler.

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So am I.If it is only refraining from wrong behavior when you really desire to do the wrong behavior, then I don't see it as a concrete example of giving control of one's life over to God since this state of mind can be achieved in various religions and by people unaware or who don't believe in God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I'm not sure why people consider it impossible that people can be naturally good. Humans have different temperments just like animals do.People breed dogs for good temperment. Even in raising cattle a milder temperment is preferred.When we look at the Native American tribes, there were peaceful tribes and there were agressive or warring tribes.

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This statement of yours really doesn't make any sense when you are talking about a guy who said "deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and come after me" and "he who seeks to save his soul will lose it, but he who loses it for my sake will gain it to life eternal."

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It does make sense when one understands that his statement is time specific and aimed to those in his presence.As Jesus continued to say:

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And yes, when you have to follow commands for your whole life, you are giving up control of your life and surrendering in some sense. That is why the Christians are called disciples about 58 times in the Book of Acts, but only called believers once. They are primarily disciples, those who obey God.

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Then people don't actually have control over their lives since they are always bound by commands/laws of some sort all their lives. So how can people give up control they don't actually have?A disciple is a student. So anyone attending school is "surrendering (giving up) control" of their life at least for the time they are sitting in the presence of the teacher. I don't think college students look at it as surrendering (giving up). That is my problem with the word surrender (giving up). It has the implication of being conquered, no choice.The life teachings we have from Jesus are very limited. Much of the what we have concerning his life deals with the imminent event.His life lessons were to teach us the best way (God's way) to live a good life. You haven't shown me that Jesus expected the average person to give up control of their lives as opposed to yielding to a better way or repenting. Understanding and changing their behavior for the better. Just as we train our children to do what we consider to be right.Edited by purpledawn, : Added surrender meaningsEdited by purpledawn, : Verse from Mark not Matthew

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Right off I,d disagree with that interpretation. The Jewish disciples continued in the law until after Jesus' death, so nobody seems to have understood it that way. Prior to His death, they were under the law.

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Yes they did as did Jesus before he died, but did they keep the "fence" up around the Torah or did they temper that as Jesus taught them? Jesus didn't consider God's laws difficult, it was the added manmade stuff that was oppressive.But concerning the topic, the verse doesn't carry the idea of giving up control or power over our lives. Yielding to a course of action, but not giving up control or power.How do you feel that God exercises restraining or directing influence over an individual, who has given control of their life to him, today?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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We asked him to take control of our lives, show us what to do, and let us be his church--a real church, not just a club meeting a couple times a week, but that glorious thing described in the Scriptures, especially in Acts.

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Can you give a practical example of a before and after situation?How did God take control of the situation as opposed to how the situation played out before you gave control of your life to God?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.We can show people what their best course of action is, but we can't make them follow that course of action. They are in control of their actions.ABE: Practical ApplicationA mother and her adult daughter are shopping in the mall. They buy identical purses. At the check out the mother goes first, pays and walks outside the store entrance and watches as her daughter checks out.The cashier couldn't find a price on the daughter's purse and had to open the purse to find the price. In that instant the daughter and mother realize that the cashier did not charge the mother for the purse.After the daugther pays, she walks over to the mother and they check the mother's receipt. Sure enough the purse was not listed.Both women have been Christians all their lives.
So how would God take control of that situation so that the right action is taken?Edited by purpledawn, : Scenerio

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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So the servant chooses his master?

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And pays when it comes to education, religion, medical, etc.We obviously aren't doing the servant thing correctly.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz