Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

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Ringo:We already belong to the enemy...Do you know what comes after the famous John 3:16 ?Well... verse 17 and 18 of course! John3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.We're already hell bound... God offers to reach down from heaven with His own Right Hand and save us from our current and deserved destiny.I think it is important to grasp that concept if we are to fully understand what Jesus was saying with His life's ministry. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Ringo:If that is not the topic, then why were you talking about it?Of course it is the topic. It is one thread that is not removable from the whole.And you have gotten Jesus wrong again...He asked us to follow Him voluntarily because we should fear.Like the other emotions of consciousness, fear is a legitimate part of consciousness when used properly. This notion that fear is all evil and wrought with manipulation is pure poppycock!Without fear, I would kill myelf daily by walking into traffic, jumping off tall buildings for pure fun, etc...Now, here is what Jesus said about fear:Edited by Rob, : jar caught me... it was Luke 12:5, not Matthew. though the point still stands...

Ok Ringo...We are to not be afraid of giving ourselves to Him in surrender. Point well taken (and made exemplary by Phat).We are afraid of the whole concept of surrender and giving our entire life over to Him. There is no need to be afraid.I do however firmly believe we are justified in being fearful of getting what we have earned by refusing to do so.It is a matter to be thought through carefully mind you, but not one to be ridiculed.Is that acceptable to you?

You said that very well Phat...I agree with everything you said and the context given. I'll try to make my appeals more broad in scope.

My apologies...I was confusing two different tabs brought up to access replies. One was out of Mtthew and the other Luke.Ringo had already corrected me as the passage is from Luke.Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.I will edit the post with the error.What amazes me jar... is that you didn't recognize the passage! I don't know why you felt it necessary to impune my character over a mistake.Do you wish to challenge the thesis?

PDIt isn't???It sure looks like it to me...He was giving up control of not only his ideas, but also the consequences that manifest from them.He didn't want to pay the bill...Luckily someone was willing to pay it for Him. Now God could easily have said, 'You've made your bed... now lie in it!' And that is where we find ourselves by default. We have to swallow a lot of gall to even admit our position to ourselves.But He doesn't... He says that if we give up our life we can have His.It's a pretty fair trade... And though it's free, it costs you everything.We can trade our perceptions and desires of what life is, for what it truely is and was always meant to be. And that will never fully manifest itself here in this life. Real life transcends this life. It is eternal and absolute, while this side of reality is timed by decay, and relative.And the fact that it is Easter, makes it a great day to make that point.Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote

jar:Should I be afraid?

Ringo:Where in the name of reason did you get that idea?Who tells you these kinds of things? They certainly do not come from your own God-given ability to think. I may think you to be a bit lacking, but your're smarter than that!If it is true that surrender is dishonest, then a bank robber would have to get into a gun battle with the authorities in order to be honest.Seems to me, that the honest thing to do would be to surrender and admit to the crime.

Ringo:Very often yes... So what?There's a place for everything in this life. It doesn't mean we should fear everything...We shouldn't fear truth for example. But many do because it challenges their own treasured belief system.Shame is the same way... There are some things we should be shameful of. Like resisting legitimate authority and sound judgement.And there are some things we should not find funny, or sad, or exciting... etc.Fear is what keeps me from diving off of cliffs for the thrill of experiencing gravity. So as a result, I surrender to the fact (or reality) that being on the ground is relatively good. Living is good, and pushing it's limits is flirting with disaster.That's how I see it anyway...off to work for a day...

PD:You seem determined to not see it...What was the prodigal repenting from?If he is giving up making his own descisions and admitting the disastrous consequences (control), then to whom is he now conceding control to in exchange for such forgiveness and the return of his true inheritance?What is it you are looking for?

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Purpledawn:Then I suppose you should not expect to find anything, up to and including your finding below...Purpledawn Finding:How did you find that without looking for anything?Does the parable have any meaning of it's own to impart, or are we just disagreeing over what it means to me vs. what it means to you?Purpledawn:We are?It seems to me, that you are insisting that the truth is that it does not. I don't see any discussion going on. I see agenda disguised as discusion.Now let me be very (very) clear... I do not have a problem with people asserting truth! We are all prophets of one kind or another anytime we affirm or refute in the positive sense. What disturbs me, is the disguise. Why not just be honest about what you believe and why you want to believe this... over that?Now slow down a minute here... I ask for the privilage to explain myself.As to my two censored answers to your first post, do Admins always get to moderate their own threads? If so, such privilage must be quite nice. When the powers that be abuse such power, dialog suffers. It matters not whether they are churches or secular institutions.Perhaps I made it too simple and powerful. Sorry for any offense.The point that I think was missed in my response, was that the Pharisees failed to ask Jesus, the next question...Jesus said, 'Give to Ceazar what is Ceazars. And give to God, what is Gods'.The next question is... 'What is God's'?And implicit in the previous statement of Jesus, is that whatever image said creation bears, it then rightly belongs to the creator of said creation. When taken into context with Genesis ('Let us create man in our image'), we have a clear Biblical passage to answer your challenge. And its context is found within both the Old and New Testament and from Jesus' own mouth.I think it is a powerful demonstration of God's genius having sovereignty over 'our tendancy' to play silly word games.You may disagree with my interpretation. That is fine. But it was a direct answer to your question. It also contains the source in question.To dismiss my point as off topic or offensive is very strange, if you are indeed looking to have a discussion.

Purpledawn:What is worship? Is that not akin to giving yourself over to something to it's or His honor?In addition to speaking about taxes, Jesus said in the same breath, 'Give to God, what is God's'.What is God's Purpledawn?Biblically speaking, we are God's, and we are expected to be Godly.When we are trying to be educated what do we do? We give ourselves to being educated. We surrender other interests (time, money, behavior)over to the education system or educator. We cannot benefit from them without conforming to the system to a very large degree. We play by their rules (lax or restrictive as they may be).To whom do we give ourselves to be Godly? Who can teach and lead the way to eternal righteousness? Such a reality is not exhaustable... It goes on for ever and ever.While giving myself to drugs and materialism I became empty. I found no answers. I have found the inexhaustable longing of my heart, and I am only trying to share it. I am astounded by the resistance, though I once resisted myself.I am sorry if it is offensive, but if you found it (or it found you), you would give yourself to share it also. As it stands now, you appear to give yourself to yourself, in order to protect your own turf and dreams. You have that right; to disagree and to fight for your own perceptions.Please just allow me the same right to speak what I believe to be the truth, with whatever metaphor or examples I choose to use.If I am not given the same freedom given to others, I will try not to act out as I have in the past. I am sorry if my own pride has gotten in the way of Christ, whom I surrender to more each day in order that I might prove to you that I am for real.

Phat:Doesn't cooperation require some level of surrender? It implies giving at least partial control. A dance is not performed by two people leading.We must choose to surrender for the sake of cooperation (cooperation being intrinsic to love).