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Author | Topic: Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes: So from the moment you are born again you are not your own you belong to God because he redeamed you that is He paid for you. Well, the concept of God buying you from Himself is supremely ludicrous.... So we have to think about what "redemption" really means. When you pawn your gold watch, you have a chance to "redeem" it - i.e. get it back by repaying the debt. If your friend Jesus pays the debt for you and redeems your watch, it's still your watch. You never lost ownership of it. So redemption doesn't necessarily involve a change in ownership. Why would your friend Jesus expect you to surrender your watch to Him? If He wanted to own it, He could have just waited until your time ran out. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes: Now either the Bible says what I quoted, or it does not. I didn't question your quotes. I questioned your interpretation of them. How about responding to my post? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
truthlover writes: Doesn't following someone else's commands mean giving up control in some sense? Only in "some" sense. Not in every sense. Soldiers are expected to obey their commanders and they are punished if they don't - but they are still expected to use their own initiative. And, of course, the term "surrender" has completely different connotations to a soldier. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes: So how can people give up control they don't actually have? You can"t, you can only chose who has that control. So the servant chooses his master? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: ....but a day or so later there may arise conviction from the conscience of one or the other.... Christians say, "God moves in mysterious ways." His Will™ can be done in different ways. So, why would He choose a specific person to go to Wyoming and start a new church? Why would He need a new church in Wyoming at all to do His work? It seems to me that the idea of God personally telling me what to do is pretty arrogant. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
truthlover writes: Is it beneath God to personally tell someone something? I'm just saying that God doesn't necessarily have to micromanage every move you make and every breath you take. It's one thing to acknowledge that God is the "Boss". What we haven't seen the Bible supporting (yet, at least) is the idea that God tells us what to do on a day-to-day basis. As far as I can see, we're still responsible (and accountable) for our own actions. That isn't "surrender". Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: I am not controlled by God...but I am led by Him as I seek the lessons that I will use to present. I think that's a good way of looking at it. Willingly following a leader is not surrender.(And you're more use to your Leader as a willing follower than as a shackled slave.) Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
anastasia writes: You can choose to surrender. Once you have, you essentially give up control. It isn't taken from you, you give it up. In "real life", surrender is usually the lesser of two evils. You can surrender or you can go out in a blaze of glory and futility. If you don't acquiesce to the chain of command, if you don't do what's "right", the wheels might come off as ICANT has suggested. But surrender is the last resort, not the first step. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
anastasia writes: In 'Christianity' you already know that following your own way is futile. I don't "know" any such thing. In Christian dogma that might fly, but not in "real-ife Christianity". Whatever happened to free will? Why would God give us free will if He wanted us to give it back?
The first step to success is understanding that you will ultimately have to surrender to God. Whether or not God wants us to surrender is the question here, not the answer. The first step to success in understanding is not jumping to your pet conclusion.
If you want it to be the last resort, go ahead. Sorry, darlin'. Does not compute. Surrender is the last resort. Surrender is for the one who's out of ammunition, not the one whose guns are still blazing. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: Only by having it could we voluntarily submit to Him to begin with. That doesn't answer the question. What's so special about "voluntary" submission as opposed to I'll-fry-you-for-eternity-if-you-don't submission? If God has "expectations" about what we do with our free will, what's free about it? Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
anastasia writes: God can't take away our intelligence, but He can ask us to let Him guide our choices. Letting Him guide our choices is not surrender.
The question is whether or not my pet conclusion is Biblical. If it was, you could have backed it up Biblically. So far, all I've seen is a misunderstanding of the word "surrender".
Is there any indication that God DID say to do whatever the heck we want with it? That's not the question. If free will is a given, then those of you who advocate surrender are obliged to show how free will is not free will. Edited by Ringo, : Spellinge. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
anastasia writes: Letting Him guide our choices is not surrender. I think it is. It comes down to "owning" our choices again. If we make a choice because that's what He wants, it isn't really our "own" choice. Free will is a gift that God gives us. If we don't make use of it, if we leave it nicely wrapped under the Christmas tree, we are diminishing the value of the gift. He might guide us, help us get the most enjoyment out of it. But He doesn't want us to give it back or to leave it unused. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
anastasia writes: How is choosing to follow God by doing the right thing, less of an exercise of free will? We exercise free will by choosing to do the right thing on a case by case basis. There is no "giving up of control" involved. We are in control in each situation. It's just that we let God's principles guide us in each decision. A "surrender" only has meaning if it's accepted - but God doesn't accept your surrender even if you offer it. You are still responsible for your actions. You are in control, whether you try to pass the buck or not. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: Its more like voluntarily submitting to the right Spirit or else you-will-fry-yourself-by-choosing-the-other-spirit. Jesus said, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men," not, "Follow me or else I'll turn you over to the enemy." Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Since the God/human relationship is unique, we can only understand it in human terms. In the Bible, two of the most common and best-known metaphors are the shepherd/sheep relationship and the father/son relationship.
In the 23rd psalm, the shepherd is more of a leader than a commander:
He is a provider and a protector:
He seems more like a servant than a master:
quote: Jesus' parable of the lost sheep is closely linked with His parable of the prodigal son. When he was down and out, the son decided to "surrender" to his father:
quote: but the father refused to accept his surrender:
quote: The jealous brother had obeyed:
quote: but the father was more appreciative of the son who made his own decision. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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