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Author Topic:   The Literal Genesis Account of Creation
pbee
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 226 of 316 (406546)
06-21-2007 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by jar
06-21-2007 1:39 AM


Re: doesn't matter what games you play with the word for days
Having read your text, all I can say at this point is that if you truly want to scrutinize the scriptures(accurately), you should start by learning Hebrew. Even the earliest stages would provide you with some much needed insight and understanding of the scriptures. Otherwise you will remain where you stand now(circling).
For the most part we are dealing with limited reasoning trumped by inscrutable scholastics, this is anything but a functional process.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 06-21-2007 1:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 06-21-2007 11:49 AM pbee has replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 227 of 316 (406548)
06-21-2007 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by ringo
06-21-2007 1:41 AM


Re: doesn't matter what games you play with the word for days
Thanks for the tip Ringo. - I had a look under the peek button, I couldn't figure it out being plagued by vBulletin forums etc. I'll have another look.
As for the KJV. Well let me be the first to say that it is a mess! However, the older bibles such as the Gutenberg Bible(Latin) holds a high accuracy rating. You can scrutinize the actual Pentateuch versions here: The British Library - Server error
In reference to light diffusion, this term although absent in English was derived from the Hebrew term; 'sha”chaq" a term used to define the original light which was created on the first day being cast to earth.
The fact that it is absent amongst many in the KJV is a good indicator of the level of detail which has been lost in modern day translations. The good news is however that the older documents help demonstrate that the Creation Account as told, remains an intricate and impressive document worthy of mention.
Don't let those cheap knock-offs fool you
Edited by pbee, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 1:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 2:32 AM pbee has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 228 of 316 (406552)
06-21-2007 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by pbee
06-21-2007 2:10 AM


Re: doesn't matter what games you play with the word for days
pbee writes:
As for the KJV. Well let me be the first to say that it is a mess!
It's the topic originator who set the constraint, not me.
In reference to light diffusion, this term although absent in English was derived from the Hebrew term; 'sha”chaq" a term used to define the original light which was created on the first day being cast to earth.
You'd need a lot more than one supposedly missing word to explain away the light-before-luminaries problem.
And you haven't defended your claim in Message 218 that "The heavens, that included the luminaries were created long before the *first day even began." As I showed in Message 221, the heavens weren't created until Day 2. That seems to indicate that Genesis 1:1 is an introduction, not a separate event.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 2:10 AM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 2:58 AM ringo has not replied
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pbee
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 229 of 316 (406553)
06-21-2007 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by jar
06-21-2007 1:39 AM


Re: doesn't matter what games you play with the word for days
Total nonsense. Again, without the sun there is no life.
You'd need a lot more than one supposedly missing word to explain away the light-before-luminaries problem.
Without posting irrelevant Hebrew passage we could simply refer to the KJV, "Then God said, "Let there be light and there was light."
As for the confusion of resting period:
The Hebrew term; sha·vath”, which means perfect state shows the characteristic of an individual, namely, God, on the seventh day of his creative week. Making, that is, all definite things in heaven and earth, make it sacred.” Or, “and proceeded to sanctify it (treat it as holy).” Hebrew, wai·qad·desh” ’o·thoh”
I am not certain I understand the issue with God's personality as mentioned. He has proven to be a God of many attributes by example and relationship however, I fail to see how that could discriminate his position as an absolute power or a Creator to all things.
A mindful characteristic of such a topic is that it proves very difficult to divert vested emotions. Conclusions resulting from misdirection rarely if ever receive acknowledgment. If anything, emotions only add further deterioration to the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 06-21-2007 1:39 AM jar has not replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 230 of 316 (406554)
06-21-2007 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by ringo
06-21-2007 2:32 AM


Re: doesn't matter what games you play with the word for days
And you haven't defended your claim in Message 218 that "The heavens, that included the luminaries were created long before the *first day even began." As I showed in Message 221, the heavens weren't created until Day 2. That seems to indicate that Genesis 1:1 is an introduction, not a separate event.
I would be happy to present you with that information.
However, I am well overdue on my sleep. Tomorrow, I will write up a complete breakdown of the Hebrew and KJV versions for you to scrutinize as well as some observations to help expand on this fascinating passage.
Take care.
Edited by pbee, : No reason given.
Edited by pbee, : to tired to type properly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 2:32 AM ringo has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 231 of 316 (406555)
06-21-2007 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by ICANT
06-20-2007 10:43 PM


Re: Re-Claiming
ICANT,
mark writes:
science concludes that all the energy & matter in this universe appeared in an instant from a singularity, then underwent a massive expansion where particles & forces distilled as the energy levels dropped. Matter then accreted into stellar bodies, galaxies & clusters as millions & billions of years elapsed. The bible has a tired old creator do in 6 days by divine fiat.
The two accounts are different, one is supported by evidence the other account therefore is contradicted by it. The "other" is the biblical account being trumped by science.
icant writes:
The two accounts are identical proving the Literal Genesis account of Creation. Thank you very much.
mark writes:
Where does science conclude that the universe was created in situ in 6 days?
icant writes:
I didn't say it did.
Yes you did, you said the two accounts were IDENTICAL.
It does not say He was tired and had to rest as you say.
Resting is because of tiredness. The bible doesn't say "& lo, god was as fresh as a daisy & just stopped because he was finished". It sais he rested.
The KJV Bible has no verse that says the universe is 6,000 years old.
Yes it does, I checked the ch/verses I provided against an online KJV. They are operationally the same.
Clearly you are in the business of putting your head in the sand because YOUR bible provides a chronology from Adam to Joseph & it lasts ~4000 years, add 2ky since Jesus & you have the YEC ~6ky. It's not my fault YOUR bible says this. You asked for chapter & verse, you got it, so at best you are being disingenuous.
This is why you are such a pointless waste of time. If I said black you'd say white.
I think they got streached out.
Again the bible is at odds with science. The bible says they were stretched out like a curtain. It wasn't, the fabric of space & its temporal dimensions expanded, unlike a curtain.
One more reason the two accounts are not identical.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2007 10:43 PM ICANT has not replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 232 of 316 (406563)
06-21-2007 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by ringo
06-21-2007 2:32 AM


Re: doesn't matter what games you play with the word for days
And you haven't defended your claim in Message 218 that "The heavens, that included the luminaries were created long before the *first day even began." As I showed in Message 221, the heavens weren't created until Day 2. That seems to indicate that Genesis 1:1 is an introduction, not a separate event.
The first chapters of the Bible deal with the Creation Account. It provides us with partial details of the steps which God took to prepare the earth for human existence. Although the account does not provide us with every component of the process it remains noteworthy that the Genesis account of origin was written in Hebrew. The resulting translations available to us today are subject to the comprehension of the translators of that era.
For example... in writing, Moses did not report the function of microscopic algae or bacteria. Such things only became common knowledge in the 16th century. Nor did Moses specifically report on dinosaurs, whose existence was deduced from fossils in the 19th century. Instead, Moses was inspired to use words which would be understood of his day which were deemed accurate in all that was written regarding the earth’s creation.
Luckily, today, we are better equipped to evaluate the Holy scriptures. We have at our disposition numerous translations on the internet and vast amounts of research which has been compiled to help decipher the accuracy of the Creation Account in the Modern Translations from the Hebrew Scriptures.
If we read Genesis chapter 1 from verse 3 onward, we can see that it is divided into six creative days. While some would claim that these were literal twenty four hour periods, I can assure you they have never read a lick of the older Hebrew texts or are simply driven by there own desires. Yes... sadly, religious enterprises misuses the scriptures to fulfill there own teachings. However we can easily discover that the Bible does not teach that. The Genesis document was clearly written where the term *day refers to a period of time. It can be either a lengthy one or a literal day or twenty four hour period. Even in Genesis all six days are spoken of collectively as one lengthy period - ”the day in which God made earth and the heavens.’ The fact is, the Bible reveals that the creative days, or ages, encompass thousands of years.
We can observe this further by taking note of the mention of the seventh day. The record of each of the first six days ends saying, ”and there came to be evening and morning, a first day,’ and so on and so forth. Yet, we will never find that comment after the record of the seventh *day. And in the first century C.E., 4,000 years later, the Bible referred to the seventh rest day as still continuing. So the seventh day was a period spanning thousands of years, and so we can conclude the same about the first six days.
It would seem as though the earth had been established in orbit around the sun and was a globe covered with water "before" the six creative days, or periods. 'There was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep.' At that early point, something”perhaps a mixture of water vapor, other gases, and volcanic dust”must have prevented sunlight from reaching the surface of the earth. The Bible describes the first creative period this way - 'God proceeded to say, ”Let there be light’ and gradually light came into existence,' or reached the surface of the earth.
The expression 'gradually came' accurately reflects the Hebrew verb involved, denoting a progressive action that takes time to complete. Anyone who reads Hebrew can find this form over 40 times in Genesis chapter 1, and it is a key to understanding the chapter. What God began in the figurative evening of a creative period, or age, became progressively clear, or apparent, after the morning of that day. Also, what was started in one period did not have to be fully completed when the next period began. To illustrate, light gradually began to appear on the first day, yet it was not until the fourth creative period that the sun, moon, and stars could have been discerned.
Before the God made dry land appear on the third creative day, he lifted some of the waters. As a result, the earth was surrounded by a blanket of water vapor(atmosphere). The ancient record does not describe the mechanisms used. Instead, the Bible focuses on the expanse between the upper and surface waters. It describes this as 'the heavens.' Even today people use this term for the atmosphere where birds and airplanes fly. In due course, God filled this atmospheric heavens with a mix of gases vital for life.
However, during the creative days, the surface water subsided, so that land appeared. Possibly using geologic forces that are still moving the plates of the earth today, God may have pushed ocean ridges up to form continents. This would produce dry land above the surface and deep ocean valleys below, which we have now mapped and studying. After dry ground had been formed, another marvelous development occurred. - 'God went on to say: ”Let the earth cause grass to shoot forth, vegetation bearing seed, fruit trees yielding fruit according to their kinds, the seed of which is in it, upon the earth.’ And it came to be so.'
As previously discussed photosynthesis is essential for plants. A green plant cell has a number of smaller parts called chloroplasts, which obtain energy from sunlight and began the chloroplast process(microscopic factories which manufacture sugars and starches). later animal life would depend upon chloroplasts for survival. Additionally, without green vegetation the earth’s atmosphere would be overly rich in carbon dioxide, and we would die from heat and lack of oxygen.
The appearance of new varieties of plant life may not have ended on the third creative day. It may even have been ongoing on into the sixth day, when the Creator planted a garden in Eden and made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food. And, as mentioned, the earth’s atmosphere must have cleared on day four, so that more light from the sun and other heavenly bodies reached planet Earth.
During the fifth creative day, the Creator proceeded to fill the oceans and the atmospheric heavens with a new form of life living creatures distinct from vegetation. Interestingly, biology supports the subclassifications of the plant and the animal kingdom. The Hebrew word translated *soul(creature) in Genesis means 'a breather.' The Bible also says that 'living souls' have blood. Therefore, we may conclude that creatures having both a respiratory system and a circulatory system”the breathing denizens of the seas and heavens”began to appear in the fifth creative period.
On the sixth day, God gave more attention to the land. He created domestic animals and wild animals, these being meaningful designations when Moses penned the account. So it was in this sixth creative period that land mammals were formed.
The ancient record tells us that eventually God chose to produce a truly unique form of life on earth. He told his heavenly Son 'Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth. Man would therefore reflect the spiritual image of God and his son displaying those qualities. And man would be capable of reasoning and free development. Thus, humans could act with an intelligence surpassing that of any other creature. Also, humans were created with a capacity to act according to his own free will, not being controlled mainly by instinct.
So why would God rest on the seventh day? The scriptures do not speak of the 7th day as a recovery period and since God enjoys an abundance of dynamic energy, He does not tire out or grow weary. Nor does he need rest as a change of pace. Jesus once said 'My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.' Although God was very pleased with what was accomplished during the periods of creative days, God specifically blessed the seventh day and pronounced it sacred. The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines *sacred as "exclusively dedicated or appropriated (to a god or to some religious purpose).” Thus, God blessed the seventh day and pronouncing it sacred indicates that it and his conclusion had a connection with his sacred will and purpose rather than with any needs on his part.
During the six preceding creative days, God had made and set into motion all the cycles and laws governing the operations of the earth and everything around it. Toward the close of the sixth day, God created the first human pair and placed them in “a garden in Eden, toward the east. Finally, God pronounced his purpose regarding the human family and the earth in these prophetic words - 'Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it...'
As the creation periods came to a close, the account tells us that God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good. God was satisfied with everything he had made. He thus rested, or desisted, from further creative work with respect to the earth. As perfect and beautiful as everything was however, it accounted for only a small area and there were just two human creatures on earth. It would take time for the earth and the human family to reach the state that God purposed. For this reason, he appointed a seventh day that would allow all that he had created in the preceding six days to develop in harmony with Gods will. As the seventh day comes to its close, the earth would have become a global paradise inhabited eternally by a family of perfect humans. The seventh day was set aside for or dedicated to the outworking and fulfilling of God’s will regarding the earth and humankind. In that sense it was sacred.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 2:32 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 10:57 AM pbee has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 233 of 316 (406571)
06-21-2007 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by pbee
06-21-2007 9:49 AM


pbee writes:
While some would claim that these were literal twenty four hour periods, I can assure you they have never read a lick of the older Hebrew texts or are simply driven by there own desires.
Sorry, but your assurance isn't worth much. As I understand it, "the evening and the morning" is a Hebrew idiom that applies only to 24-hour days. Hebrew scholars agree on that. Your claim comes from apologists who "are simply driven by there own desires" to make Genesis agree with science.
And in the first century C.E., 4,000 years later, the Bible referred to the seventh rest day as still continuing. So the seventh day was a period spanning thousands of years....
I have no problem with that.
... and so we can conclude the same about the first six days.
No we can't, because of the idiomatic useage of the word "day".
It would seem as though the earth had been established in orbit around the sun and was a globe covered with water "before" the six creative days, or periods.
There's nothing in Genesis - or anywhere in the Bible, for that matter - about an "orbit". I'll remind you again that this thread is about the literal Genesis account of creation - i.e. what's in Genesis, not every fairy tale you choose to make up.
At that early point, something”perhaps a mixture of water vapor, other gases, and volcanic dust”must have prevented sunlight from reaching the surface of the earth.
No, you're just making that up.
The Bible describes the first creative period this way - 'God proceeded to say, ”Let there be light’ and gradually light came into existence,' or reached the surface of the earth.
First, you haven't established that the light "gradually came into existence". Second, coming into existence and reaching the surface of the earth are not the same thing.
The expression 'gradually came' accurately reflects the Hebrew verb involved, denoting a progressive action that takes time to complete. Anyone who reads Hebrew can find this form over 40 times in Genesis chapter 1, and it is a key to understanding the chapter.
As I said, Hebrew scholars seem to agree that the "days" were 24-hour days, so if you are right about "gradually", it must mean gradually within the context of 24-hour days.
Also, what was started in one period did not have to be fully completed when the next period began.
Yes it did, because God kept noticing all along the way that "it was good". Or are you going to claim that the Hebrew really really really means "it was gradually becoming good"?
... light gradually began to appear on the first day, yet it was not until the fourth creative period that the sun, moon, and stars could have been discerned.
As I said, God made the luminaries on the 4th day. You haven't said anything yet to establish your claim that they "became visible" on the 4th day.
Your post is nicely written. However, there's nothing in the content but lame apologetics. You haven't addressed my question at all.
I repeat: In Message 218, you claimed that "The heavens, that included the luminaries were created long before the *first day even began." I showed, in Message 221, that the heavens were created on Day 2.
Even if the days were longer than 24 hours (which you have not substantiated), you're still mangling the order of events. I'm saying that the "heavens" (= "firmament") were not created until Day 2. Therefore, "in the beginning" is an introduction refering to the whole creation week, not to events that happened before the creation week.
That point (if I'm right) by itself nullifies any "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 9:49 AM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 1:54 PM ringo has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 234 of 316 (406580)
06-21-2007 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by pbee
06-21-2007 1:56 AM


Re: doesn't matter what games you play with the word for days
Otherwise you will remain where you stand now(circling).
For the most part we are dealing with limited reasoning trumped by inscrutable scholastics, this is anything but a functional process.
Excuse me? I am but circling? Limited reasoning? Inscrutable scholastics? Functional process?
The topic is "The Literal Genesis Account of Creation " and the topic originator has several times said that he is basing his position on the 1611 edition of the KJV.
The facts are, as I have tried to point out, even just the Creation myth found in Genesis 1 cannot be factually true. Please try to address the issues raised in Message 224.
The facts are simply wrong. The first plants were not seed bearing plants.
The first plants were not fruit.
KIND has no meaning and is simply theobabble.
The first plants were NOT on land.
The first life was not even plant or animal.
You cannot have the sun and stars created at the same time.
The Moon has no light.
The list simply goes on and one.
The Creation Myth found in Genesis 1 is simply factually wrong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 1:56 AM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 12:16 PM jar has not replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 235 of 316 (406583)
06-21-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by jar
06-21-2007 11:49 AM


Re: doesn't matter what games you play with the word for days
The facts are, as I have tried to point out, even just the Creation myth found in Genesis 1 cannot be factually true.
I see what your saying. I have to admit, I was quite exhausted last night and missed a great deal of details while I was perusing the thread.
I guess, my own inclination is to interpret the scriptures inversely as opposed to the modern day translations onwards. The OP approach would certainly pose limitations for anyone looking to unearth an accurate rendition of the Genesis Account. However, as I mentioned earlier, the good news is that there is plenty of detail if one decides to dig down to the original scriptures in search of reasoning the claims of Creation.
The KJV holds a reputation as an interpretation of the original Holy Scriptures. One would not have to work very hard to conclude that the texts found in the KJV are inconclusive as accurate forms of biblical knowledge.
I am aware of a group of researchers who are working on a much higher definition of the Hebraic Creation Account. While, I have not seen any actually texts from this project, I was told that it is turning out to be an very impressive project with a great deal of emphasis placed on translation and literary accuracy.
I will get out of the way now and get back to work.
Have fun!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 06-21-2007 11:49 AM jar has not replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 236 of 316 (406596)
06-21-2007 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by ringo
06-21-2007 10:57 AM


Sorry, but your assurance isn't worth much. As I understand it, "the evening and the morning" is a Hebrew idiom that applies only to 24-hour days. Hebrew scholars agree on that. Your claim comes from apologists who "are simply driven by there own desires" to make Genesis agree with science.
Let us take a closer look at how the key Hebrew words of concern can be translated since often each Hebrew word has many uses depending upon the context. We will look at selected extractions of the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and The Interlinear Bible by Jay P. Green, with selected portions placed in red boxes for emphasis.
We start with the Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary extract for 3117 "yowm", Fig. 1 below.
Note that there can be two uses of the word, as a literal day, or as a figurative day for a period of time to be defined by associated words.
Also we will look at the "Lexical Aids for the Old Testament" edited by Spiros Zodhiates for yowm in Fig. 2 below.
Note that this author expands on Strong's comments and repeatedly emphasizes that yowm can be a period of time. We look at some of the places early in the Old Testament at which yowm has been translated as time in Fig 3 below. (Over 40 times depending upon the translation.)
As early as Genesis 2:4 we see yowm in the singular with an attached infinitive used to indicate an extended period of time. Strong's does not show this since the King James Versions retain the translation of day, but other translations recognize that in this case yowm refers to the time of the entire creation of the heavens and earth as recognized by the The Bible: An American Translation and others, "At the time when God made the earth and the heavens." See Fig 4 below (remember to read Hebrew from right to left).
How about evening ('ereb #6153) and morning (boqer #1242), can they be associated with a long time period? They appear in this order only a limited number of times in the Scriptures. In Genesis 1 of course, and a couple of times in connection with Aaron in the tabernacle from evening to morning (Exodus 17:21 and Leviticus 24:3), and once in Psalms (55:17; Evening, and morning, and at noon, ...), and twice in the eighth chapter of Daniel as shown in Fig. 5 below. (Remember to read the Hebrew from right to left.)
In this case evening and morning are associated with a "vision" that definitely covers many years. And the best literal translation would seem to be, "And the vision of the evening and the morning that was told, true it is.", even though some translations do us "evenings and mornings". The word evenings appears only once in the King James Version, and not from 'ereb, but from 'arabah (#6160) and the word mornings never occurs. And the above is the only other place that 'ereb and boqer occur in combination with yowm. Here is Young's Literal Translation;
8:26 "And the appearance of the evening and of the morning, that is told, is true; and thou, hide thou the vision, for it is after many days."
And also 'ereb and boqer appear in Daniel 8:14, but without yowm, and in this case the singular words are in connection with a very long time period per Young's Literal Translation;
8:14 "And he saith unto me, Till evening -- morning two thousand and three hundred, then is the holy place declared right."
And the Septuagint, an early translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek adds the word days.
"14 And he said to him, Evening and morning there shall be two thousand and four hundred days; and then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."
And in his commentary on the Book of Daniel by the early Church Father Jerome (347-420AD) also adds the word days.
"Until the evening and the morning, until two thousand three hundred days; and then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."
And below is a composite comparison of the Hebrew of Genesis 1:5, Daniel 8:14 and Daniel 8:26 utilizing the primary English meanings per James H. Strong for #6153 "dusk" (evening), #1242 "dawn" (morning) and #1961 "exist" (there was).
So as we see there are really no evidences else where in the Bible that 'ereb and boqer are "defining words" to yowm as many claim. Instead, it would appear most likely that they are descriptive terms concerning the creation process as described in the preceding verses. Now if one considers the probability that they are descriptive terms evening and morning can refer to the "beginning" with "darkness" and the "ending", with the "light" or a dramatic "dawning light" thus giving us the following.
"And the beginning and the ending were the ____ time."
or
"And the darkness and the light were the ____ time."
or
"And the darkness and the dawning light were the ____ time."
Thus the transfer from darkness to light adds the picture of an improvement or a progression in the state of the creation process with each time phase. There is also a figurative translation of boqer as "of bright joy after night of distress" per The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon.
If we use the more basic meanings of the words per the figure above, where evening is called 'ereb because when the sun goes down, vision becomes blurry and disordered and with the break of day it clears. Thus we have;
And the mixing and the breaking forth were the ____ time.
Which has caused some to propose.
"And from chaos/disorder to order, the ____ time."
Therefore the reader can possibly chose from any of the above, which ever seems to connect with them the most. Referring back to Fig 1 from Strong's, you will note that "age" is also a valid translation for yowm, but the authors have used "time" or "phase" since these are our preference.
Through out history there have always been a small minority of linguists who have maintained that Hebrew was the mother language from which all languages originated. Needless to say they have been ignored by the secular linguists and also most Christians. But there remains today a number of these linguists. One of them is Isaac E. Mozeson graduate from Yeshiva College. Fig 11 that follows is an extract from his book "The Word" published by Shapolsky Publishers in 1989.
While it is often difficult for the amateur to recognize the origin of English words from the Hebrew mother tongue because the two languages seem to be so different. However, the connection between aeon or eon and yom (Strong's yowm) is not so difficult to understand since the sounds are very similar. Therefore, the translation of yowm in the Genesis 1 passages to aeon is also a good choice. We did not use this choice in the body of our discussion since eon or aeon do not appear in the King James Versions and Strong's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 10:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 2:38 PM pbee has replied
 Message 308 by arachnophilia, posted 06-23-2007 11:41 PM pbee has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 237 of 316 (406607)
06-21-2007 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by pbee
06-21-2007 1:54 PM


Hi pbee,
First, I'm not accusing you of anything, but you should be aware that copying from websites, etc. without attribution is a violation of the forum guidelines. Some of your posts read like copy/pastes. If you're doing that, don't. If you're not, don't start.
Second, using Strong as an authority on Hebrew won't get you much credibility around here. Strong is somewhat useful to compare whether the same word is used in different places, but it's of little use in understanding what the word means. And it's even less useful in understanding what the authors meant.
Third, the length of the days isn't really the issue of this thread. However long the days, the events are still in the wrong order. Lengthening the days to fit the scientific timeframe is a waste of time when none of the details agree with science anyway.
The issue that I'm trying to get at - and I'm wondering if you're ever going to address it - is that the "heavens" mentioned in Genesis 1:1 were not created until Day 2. Therefore, I conclude that "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," is an introduction, much like "Once upon a time, there were three bears." The next sentence goes on to describe the same three bears, not three different bears as ICANT would have us believe.
There can't be a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 because Genesis 1:1 is not an event.
I'm quite willing to be wrong but I've heard all the apologetic tripe before. Every few days, we have somebody come saling in here claiming he's going to learn us a thing or two about the Bible. It nearly always comes down to bluff, bluff, bluff and then, "You have to have the Holy Spirit whisper sweet nothings in your ear," and then crickets chirping.
I was hoping for something better from you.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 1:54 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 2:56 PM ringo has replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 238 of 316 (406610)
06-21-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by ringo
06-21-2007 2:38 PM


There are no violations on my part. However, if the forum does not allow image linking and text pasting then... thats that.
The Genesis account opens with the simple, powerful statement 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.' Bible scholars(most) agree that this verse describes an action separate from the creative days recounted from verses three onward. The implication is profound. According to the Bible’s opening statement, the universe, including our planet Earth, was in existence for an indefinite time before the creative days began.
Geologists estimate that the earth is approximately four billion years old, and astronomers calculate that the universe may be as much as 15 billion years old. Do these findings or their potential future refinements”contradict Genesis? No. The Bible does not specify the actual age of “the heavens and the earth.” Science does not disprove the Biblical text.
I know nothing of expectations or otherwise, if I feel I might have something to contribute on a particular topic then I will participate. Otherwise its pretty straightforward. In a case where people are evaluating something as intricate as the scriptures, there are no clear cut cases. It really comes down to evaluations and choices. In some cases, the choices are clear, yet in others not so. Regardless of the evidence there will always be those who choose to take the path opposing reason in order to uphold there own assertions.
The statement that the earth was formed or existent prior to the third period of the creation account is backed by scientific evidence. In my own opinion, I don't see why people would force a none conforming belief where a reasonable one is available. Unless of course we are opting to support ulterior motives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 2:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 3:21 PM pbee has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 239 of 316 (406617)
06-21-2007 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by pbee
06-21-2007 2:56 PM


pbee writes:
... if the forum does not allow image linking and text pasting then... thats that.
It's allowed, but you have to say you got it from Accuracy In Genesis and preferably give a link.
(ABE: You should also tell us in your own words what you're trying to say. You need to show us that you understand what your source is saying.)
Are you ever going to address my point about the creation of the heavens?
Edited by Ringo, : Added further sage advice.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 2:56 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 3:34 PM ringo has replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 240 of 316 (406620)
06-21-2007 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by ringo
06-21-2007 3:21 PM


Are you ever going to address my point about the creation of the heavens?
As with all things under scrutiny, the first chapters of the Bible deserve a fair hearing. The importance rests on investigating and determine whether it harmonizes with facts, not to mold it to fit some theoretical framework. Also to be remembered, the Genesis account was not written to show the *how of creation. Rather, it covers major events in a progressive way, describing what things were formed, the order in which they were formed and the time interval, or day, in which each first appeared.
When we examine the Genesis account, it is helpful to keep in mind that it approaches matters from the standpoint of people on earth. So it describes events as they would have been seen by human observers had they been present. This can be noted from its treatment of events on the fourth day of Genesis. There the sun and moon are described as great luminaries in comparison to the stars. Yet many stars are far greater than our sun, and the moon is insignificant in comparison to them. But not to an earthly observer. So, as seen from the earth, the sun appears to be a greater light that rules the day and the moon a lesser light that dominates the night.
The first part of Genesis indicates that the earth most likely existed long before the first Genesis day, though it does not say for how long. However, it does describe what earth’s condition was just before that first day began. 'Now, the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.'
1. Light, division between day and night - Ge 1:3-5
2. Expanse, a division between waters beneath the expanse and waters above it. - Ge 1:6-8
3. Dry land, vegetation - Ge 1:9-13
4. Heavenly luminaries become discernible from earth - Ge 1:14-19
5. Aquatic souls and flying creatures - Ge 1:20-23
6. Land animals & man - Ge 1:24-31
LUMINARIES (Ge 1:14-19); A source of light, a lamp, a heavenly body from which the earth receives light.
The Genesis account states that during the fourth creative day, God caused luminaries to come to be in the expanse of the heavens. This does not indicate the coming into existence of light(Hebrew, ’ohr) itself, since this is shown to have existed previously. Nor does it state that the sun, moon, and stars were created at this point. The initial verse of the Bible states: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Thus the heavens with their celestial bodies, including the sun, existed for an undetermined period of time prior to the processes and events stated as occurring during the six creative periods described in the following verses of the first chapter of Genesis.
So how it can be that God made the luminaries on the fourth creative day when light”evidently from these same luminaries”was reaching the earth on the first creative day? Note that verses 14-16 speak of making in contrast to creating - in Genesis 1:1 and lights in contrast to light in Genesis 1:3. This indicates that it was on the fourth creative day that the sun and moon, already in existence, became clearly visible through the earth’s dense atmosphere.
It should also be noted that, whereas Genesis 1:1 states that God created(Hebrew, ba·ra’) the heavens and the earth in the beginning, verses 16 and 17 state that, during the fourth creative day, God proceeded to make (Hebrew, a form of a·sah) the two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night, and also the stars. Thus God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth. The Hebrew word a·sah, often translated make, can mean simply to establish, appoint, form, or prepare.
The record states what the already existing sun, moon, and stars now became in relation to the(planet) earth. On the first day light (Hebrew, ’ohr) evidently gradually penetrated the cloud layers still enveloping the earth and would have become visible to an earthly observer, had he been present. (Ge 1:3) On the fourth day things changed. The statement that 'God put them in the expanse of the heavens' on that day expresses the fact that God caused the sources of light (Hebrew, ma·’ohr”), namely, the sun, moon, and stars, to become discernible in the expanse. Their purpose was to 'make a division between the day and the night' and to 'serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years.' In addition to being signs of God’s existence and majesty, by their movements such luminaries enable man to mark accurately the natural seasons, days, and years.
The same Hebrew word(ma·’ohr) is used with reference to the light-bearing equipment in the tabernacle, which employed lighted oil as the means for producing illumination. At Proverbs it is used figuratively in the expression brightness of the eyes. Egypt is prophetically warned of a withdrawal of all light by Gods darkening and beclouding all the luminaries(form of ma·’ohr)of light(’ohr) in the heavens.
Edited by pbee, : typos typos typos...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 3:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 3:54 PM pbee has replied
 Message 310 by arachnophilia, posted 06-24-2007 12:07 AM pbee has not replied

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