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Author
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Topic: Before Big Bang God or Singularity
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 46 of 405 (452164)
01-29-2008 4:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 36 by cavediver
01-29-2008 2:32 PM
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Re: Re Singularity
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: Utter, utter bollocks... you have completely failed to understand what he is saying. quote:
A spacetime is singular if it is timelike or null geodesically incomplete, but can not be embedded in a larger spacetime.
Does Dr. Hawking say? "but can not be embedded in a larger spacetime" Does that mean that it can not reside in an absence of anything?
quote:
I have emphasized what I consider the two most remarkable features that I have learnt in my research on space and time: first, that gravity curls up spacetime so that it has a begining and an end. Second, that there is a deep connection between gravity and thermodynamics that arises because gravity itself determines the topology of the manifold on which it acts.
Did Dr. Hawking say: gravity curls up spacetime?
quote:
The positive curvature of spacetime produced singularities at which classical general relativity broke down.
Did Dr. Hawking say: The positive curvature of spacetime produced singularities? Questions: Did gravity exist before the big bang? Did spacetime exist befoe the big bang? If there was no gravity before the Big Bang and there was no spacetime before the Big Bang. The postive curvature of spacetime could not produce the singularity our universe is supposed to have come from. All this according to Dr. Hawking. Now if there was gravity before the Big Bang and spacetime, "Where did they come from? If there could be no singularity then it could not be the answer to my question. That leaves only one thing. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen. 1:1
cavediver writes: And the lectures were not at the Isaac Newton Institute - they were at Lady Mitchell Hall on the Sidgwick Site. We had far too many visitors to fit into the old Isaac Newton lecture hall. The web site still lists Isaac Newton Institute that is all I have to go on. I was not there like you was.
cavediver writes: Why do you insist on making such a prick of yourself by refering to Hawking as 'Dr Hawking'? We've been through this before Yes we have it was over me refering to him as Stephen Hawking. I then started to refering to him as Dr. Hawking to show a little respect for your sake. The man shows nothing but contempt for my God why should I even refer to him as Dr Hawking. If you perfer I will refer to him as Stephen Hawking in the future, your choice. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 2:32 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Re Singularity
Hi t4C,
teen4christ writes: ICANT, speaking as a college student, I can understand why other people here are frustrated with you. When you make a wrong assumption do your Professors revile you or do they explain where you are wrong?
tean4christ writes: By reading a few words on the matter and claiming yourself an expert on it, Hold on there a minute tiger. I do not claim to be an expert on science that is why I am here to pick these smart peoples brain so I can learn. Now if your definition of expert is a drip under pressure I would have to claim that one because these guys have put me under pressure and keep me there. But how else can I learn at my age. If my conclusion I draw from what Dr. Hawking said is wrong all anybody has to do is to take his words and show me my assumptions are incorrect. No I am called everything in the book but no explanation.
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 49 of 405 (452180)
01-29-2008 4:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 41 by cavediver
01-29-2008 3:35 PM
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Re: Singularity
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: This is what Hawking is describing in this lecture. Somehow ICANT has managed to get this completely arse-about-face.
I understand that Dr. Hawking started of talking about the no boundry theory and he did a good job of explaining how things could be. Then he summed up his lecture with the things I refer to. Either he said them or he didn't. Whether he believes them or not is something else. I have no problem with an eternal universe I have said every since I came to EvC I believe in one. I even have a beginning for one. Have fun
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 3:35 PM | | cavediver has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 54 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 5:12 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Re Singularity
Hi Scientist,
Catholic Scientist writes: But to directly answer your questions: Yes, they were both there. Would you have any information as to their orgin?
Catholic Scientist writes: "The Singularity" that is refered to as the Big Bang. In other words, the Big Bang was a singularity, but not all singularies are the Big Bang. Are you saying the singularity the universe expanded from is a special singularity that is not created by the method Dr. Hawking described. What a revelation, now if you would be so kind as to explain how it was created I would love to learn.
Catholic Scientist writes: They always were. I believe that because I believe they are a part of God. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 55 of 405 (452214)
01-29-2008 6:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 51 by cavediver
01-29-2008 4:56 PM
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Re Singularity
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: No, it wasn't. I have no complaint whatsoever to you referring to him as Hawking, Stephen Hawking, SWH, Prof Hawking, etc, etc. He is just NOT 'Dr Hawking'. It is not his title. As per your request I will refer to him as Hawking, less typing.
cavediver writes: It's f'ing obvious it has a singularity If you are saying the Big Bang obviously had a singularity, I got no problem with that.
cavediver writes: Hawking says 'gravity curls up spacetime so that it has a begining and an end', OK
ICANT writes: Did Dr. Hawking say: The positive curvature of spacetime produced singularities? cavediver writes: Yes, but not in any way you understand. You think this means some temporal causal relation between positive curvature of spacetime 'in the past' 'causing' a singularity 'in the 'future'. OK All I am concerned with is that it produced singularities time is irrelevant.
cavediver writes: In classical GR there is no 'before', so your question is meaningless. I agree as far as classical GR my question is meaningless.
cavediver writes: In classical GR there is no 'before', so your question is meaningless. I agree as far as classical GR my question is meaningless. Let me see if I am getting the hang of this. A singularity cannot be in anything as it is everything. The Big Bang has a singularity. Gravity curls up spacetime The positive curvature of spacetime produced singularities The Big Bang had a singularity. But Gravity was non existent until after the Big Band. Spacetime was non existent until after the Big Bang. The only way put forth for the singularity to exist says it can not exist. If there is another way for a singularity to come into being I would like to hear about it. Until then I will say: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen. 1:1 Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 4:56 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 57 of 405 (452221)
01-29-2008 6:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by cavediver
01-29-2008 5:11 PM
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Re: Re Singularity
Hi cavediver, What I said:
ICANT writes: "NOTICE" I say if Dr. Hawking is correct in what "HE" says in these lectures there could have been no singularity the universe expanded from. There is no way one could form under the circumstances he described that they were created in. "NOTICE" I am not saying that there is no way possible for a singularity to exist. But I am saying that under the understood Big Bang Theory it could not have. Under an amended Big Bang Theory it could exist. How do you take this: "I say if Dr. Hawking is correct in what "HE" says" And get this: quote:
When a first year physics/maths undergrad stands up in a lecture hall and announces that they can prove God using the Hawking-Penrose singularity theorems,
I thought only creationist was supposed to do things like that. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 5:11 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 58 of 405 (452223)
01-29-2008 6:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by cavediver
01-29-2008 6:42 PM
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Re: Re Singularity
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: Nonsense, the singularity is at T=0. Then what process produced this singularity at T=O? Or do you believe by faith it was there? Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 6:42 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Time
Hi Scientist,
Catholic Scientist writes: If there is not a point in time when they did not exist then they do not have an origin, by definition. Well it appears time did not exist until the Big Bang. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 61 of 405 (452229)
01-29-2008 7:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 59 by cavediver
01-29-2008 6:52 PM
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Re Singularity
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: As Hawking said, the positive curvature of the space-time. So are you saying there was space-time before the Big Bang? Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 6:52 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 64 of 405 (452241)
01-29-2008 8:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 62 by cavediver
01-29-2008 7:20 PM
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Re: Re Singularity
Hi cavediver,
Message 56 ICANT writes: The only way put forth for the singularity to exist says it can not exist. cavediver writes: Nonsense, the singularity is at T=0. Message 59 ICANT writes: Then what process produced this singularity at T=O? cavediver writes: As Hawking said, the positive curvature of the space-time. Message 62 ICANT writes: So are you saying there was space-time before the Big Bang? cavediver writes: No, of course not... It is impossible according to what you say in the above quotes for us to be having this conversation unless: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen. 1:1 My original question:
Message 1In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang. Prenise 1: Singularity including the Big Bang is the best explanation for the orgin of the universe. Falasified Premise 2: God is the best explanation for the orgin of the universe. Maybe, Maybe not but not falsified. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 7:20 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 67 of 405 (452247)
01-29-2008 8:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 66 by cavediver
01-29-2008 8:09 PM
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Re: Re Singularity
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: Well done, you've proved God created the Universe. Are you going to be on TV tomorrow? If so, I'll look out for you. No sorry to say cavediver I have not proved God created the Universe. I wish that was possible but I know it is not. I think what we have discussed does prove what many even Hawking was putting forth in his unbounded theory is that we need something better than the Big Bang Theory as now accepted and taught to explain the orgin of the universe. I would love to get into a study of the eternal universe but I don't know that I will have time. I will pick your brain from time to time and see how it is coming along. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 8:09 PM | | cavediver has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 68 by Taz, posted 01-29-2008 10:07 PM | | ICANT has replied | | | Message 70 by cavediver, posted 01-30-2008 4:41 AM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 69 of 405 (452272)
01-29-2008 10:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 68 by Taz
01-29-2008 10:07 PM
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Re:steady state
Hi Taz,
Taz writes: The steady state theory was disproven years ago. No need to go there again. Who said anything about steady state theory? Or does that disprove string theory and super string theory also? If it does there is a lot of scientist wasting a lot of time and money trying to perfect the Super string theory that will be the end all theory. But as I said I don't have the time to discuss those things so forget I made this post as I will not answer anything posted concerning it. Have lots of fun now,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by Taz, posted 01-29-2008 10:07 PM | | Taz has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 73 of 405 (452441)
01-30-2008 11:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 71 by Son Goku
01-30-2008 10:20 AM
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Re: Conclusions.
Hi Son Goku, Long time no see about six months.
Alright, ICANT, if you would be kind enough, could you tell me what you think a singularity is? What does what I think a singularity is have to do with my OP? "In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang." I have not put forth a definition for a singularity and one is not needed. I quoted some information Hawking gave in summation of a lecture concerning how a singularity is formed. Where he stated how a singularity could be created. Since the conditions he said was necessary for a singularity could not have existed prior to T=0 for the singularity to have been created. Correct me if I am wrong when I say until the Big Bang there was no gravity, there was no space-time there was no matter, in other words all things were created in the expansion. I concluded from that information. That The Singularity could not have been created and thus responsible for the expansion that our universe came from. Therefore as the Op was stated I concluded that. Premise 1: Singularity including the Big Bang is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. Falsified Premise 2: God is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. Maybe, Maybe not but not falsified. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by Son Goku, posted 01-30-2008 10:20 AM | | Son Goku has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 75 by Son Goku, posted 01-30-2008 12:02 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 78 of 405 (452457)
01-30-2008 12:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 74 by Son Goku
01-30-2008 11:51 AM
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Re: Singularity.
Hi Son,
Son Goku writes: Now Hawking and Penrose in the 1960s showed that Einstein's General Relativity has singularities in two cases: (1) Inside black holes. (2) At the Big Bang. I understand black holes. I do not understand that it is reasonable to assume a singularity at the Big Bang just because it had to have one. Sounds like Faith like I have in God.
Son Goku writes: We need a new theory, Correction you need a new theory. Mine is still sufficient. I know I been told enough times I don't have a theory so you don't have to repeat that. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by Son Goku, posted 01-30-2008 11:51 AM | | Son Goku has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 79 by Son Goku, posted 01-30-2008 12:37 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 80 of 405 (452467)
01-30-2008 1:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 79 by Son Goku
01-30-2008 12:37 PM
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Re: Singularity.
Hi Son,
Son Goku writes: Hawking and Penrose showed that General Relativity has such a mathematical "breakdown" near the Big Bang. As such it is no longer capable of fulling predicting things. I understand that it can not predict anything therefore it can not declare anything. Anything at this point has to be assumed and there is an absence of anything to make the assumption from. But Faith. How about I insert God at that point and say: In the beginning God created the heaven and the universe. Gen. 1:1. Have fun,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by Son Goku, posted 01-30-2008 12:37 PM | | Son Goku has replied |
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