Concerning the animal problem: The number didn´t interest at all(God has more important things to think of).It didn´t care if it is 1 or 2. For example God could say to you "You will find a horse outdoors" and you can find a bunch of them.Sometimes God don´t accounts for the plural.
CrashFrog,I only said that God have his priorities. For the second quote i should say that when for example in Daniel God talks about animals he is talking about an entire nation or empire for each animal.Gotcha?
In response to Dave 901... Because this is the second time this has been posted, I just thought I'd say that there are several online sites that readily offer explanations for your geneaology question. I got the following from www.aboutbibleprophesy.com: "From Abraham to David, the genealogies of Matthew and Luke are almost the same, but from David on they are different. Some scholars suggest that this is because Matthew traces the legal descent of the house of David using only heirs to the throne, while Luke traces the complete line from Joseph to David." As I believe you mentioned in your post, Matthew is written with an emphasis on Jesus' kingship, probably because the author's christology led him to identify Jesus with the king messiah. Thus it would make sense that he gives a line of kings for Jesus' geneaology to associate Jesus with the next "king." There are other possible explanations as well, including that the passages are made up, just like the rest of the Bible . It may interest you to do a quick online seach for biblical genealogies to read up on their nature, importance, why they aren't always every generation, and other pretty interesting stuff.
[This message has been edited by Jake22, 07-28-2003]
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Yes, I know this is an old thread. But recently, I have been reading as many threads as possible, out of pure interest and hopefully to learn a few things.
Conspirator, an inactive member wrote this:
"According to Roman time, the day ran from midnight to midnight. The Jewish 24 hour period in the evening at 6 p.m. and the morning of that day began at 6 a.m. Therefore, when Mark asserts that at the third hour Christ was crucified, this was about 9 a.m. John stated that Christ's trial was about the sixth hour. This would place the trial before the crucifixion and this would not negate any testimony of the Gospel writers."
Now, every apologist website I have frequented claims the same, regarding Roman time. Midnight, the starting point. Yet outside of these sites, I have yet to find a single reference that Romans followed time in this manner. I have read in a few places that the Romans followed time similiar to the Jews, daylight the starting point. Also, when did the recording of the hours start at midnight?
According to Roman time, the day ran from midnight to midnight. The Jewish 24 hour period in the evening at 6 p.m. and the morning of that day began at 6 a.m. Therefore, when Mark asserts that at the third hour Christ was crucified, this was about 9 a.m. John stated that Christ's trial was about the sixth hour. This would place the trial before the crucifixion and this would not negate any testimony of the Gospel writers.
This seems suspect. I also cannot find a specific reference to such information regarding Roman time keeping; Wikipedia, however, does have this to say:
The Jewish day begins at either sunset or at nightfall (when three second-magnitude stars appear). Medieval Europe followed this tradition, known as Florentine reckoning: in this system, a reference like "two hours into the day" meant two hours after sunset and thus times during the evening need to be shifted back one calendar day in modern reckoning. Days such as Christmas Eve, Halloween, and the Eve of Saint Agnes are the remnants of the older pattern when holidays began the evening before. Present common convention is for the civil day to begin at midnight, that is 00:00 (inclusive), and last a full twenty-four hours until 24:00 (exclusive).
In ancient Egypt, the day was reckoned from sunrise to sunrise. Muslims fast from daybreak to sunset each day of the month of Ramadan. The "Damascus Document", copies of which were also found among the Dead Sea scrolls, states regarding Sabbath observance that "No one is to do any work on Friday from the moment that the sun's disk stands distant from the horizon by the length of its own diameter," presumably indicating that the monastic community responsible for producing this work counted the day as ending shortly before the sun had begun to set.
This doesn't address how the Romans particularly measured time, but it mentions a few traditions from the ancient world. Also, it mentions the Jewish measure of time. As the article says, Jewish days begin at Sunset and end at the following Sunset about 24 hours later. Now, Conspirator's statement regarding the Jewish reckoning of the day is horribly agrammatical, and I cannot really figure out what it is he is trying to say. It appears, though, that his information regarding the Jewish measure of the day is a little off. For starters, he mentions a 24 hour period, but then gives us a period from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m., which is only twelve hours. Also, any information about the reckoning of the day doesn't really help us figure out to what the terms 'third hour' and 'sixth hour' refer, since the measuring of hours could have begun with the morning (when the Sun rises), not necessarily the beginning of the day (when the Sun sets). The NRSV translates the phrases 'third hour' and 'sixth hour' in Mark and John, respectively, as 'nine o'clock in the morning' and 'about noon'.
Many problems arise trying to reconcile the different times of the trial and crucifixion as told in the different gospels. If, as John claims, Jesus was tried on the day before Passover, then, if Conspirator's reconciliation that both Mark's and John's times are accurate is true; it would mean a crucifixion on the morning of the Passover (using John's account of when the trial began, and Mark's timing for the crucifixion, which had to, obviously, take place after the trial). However, according to both Mark and John, Jesus was buried on the day of Preparation (Mk. 15:42; Jn. 19:31). If 'third hour' in Mark really refers to 9 a.m., as Conspirator claims, there is no way to reconcile the two accounts.
Check out Apollo's Temple! Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr
I agree there are huge problems with the accounts. The Jews did not divide a day into 24 hours.
Its obvious John when refering to the sixth hour was refering to noon.
How do we know. From the events described.
Using apologetics, the sixth hour would be 6 am.
Daybreak, ie morning (sunlight), would be around 530 the earliest. According to John:
28 Then the Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. 29 So Pilate came out to them and asked, “What charges are you bringing against this man?”
At this point ,earliest its 5:30. Jesus is then:
Dragged before Pilate. Pharisees have a discussion with Pilate. Pilate talks to Jesus. Decides to have Jesus tortured. Jesus is taken away and tortured. Jesus is led out to the priests and officers. The crowd demands Jesus be crucified. Pilate questions Jesus again. Priests and officers demand again be crucified. Pilate decides to crucify him. Pilate again talks with the priests. Jesus is taken away to be crucified.
Now imagine all the walking and talking that is not mentioned.
All this ocurred within 30 minutes????
It makes perfect sense to conclude that the sixth hour was noon.
Even worse for the apologists, I used a site that manages to give various times throughout history. In 33, I could not even find a morning in Israel that corresponded to 5:30. Every time I put in came in later. So John could not be refering to 6am.
John though, uses the sixth hour earlier in his gospel.
3He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
4And he must needs go through Samaria.
5Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
6Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
7There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8(For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
Its seems rather unreasonable that Jesus went from Judea to Samaria in the darkness, coming upon the well at around 6am.
It also seems more likely in my opinion, that his disciples would go into the city to buy meat at noon, rather than 6am.
But again, back to my main point. Can anyone show me that the Romans kept time, starting a day at midnight?
I have found sites that claim their day started at morning, from there, various methods were used to break the hours down, be it a sundial or water clock.
James 1:13- Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
God does tempt!
Genesis 22:1- And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
And why would Jesus ask this, if God tempts no one?
Matthew 6:13- And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Whatever you do, don't make graven images
Exodus 20:4- Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Deuteronomy 4:23- Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.
But let me tell you the proper way to make some graven images.
Exodus 25:18- And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:19- And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
Exodus 25:20- And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
Psalms 58:10- The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked
Proverbs 24:17- Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Ezra 2:6- The children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand eight hundred and twelve.
Nehemiah 7:11- The Children of Pahathmoab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab two thousand eight hundred and eighteen
2 Samuel 8:4- And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: and David houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them for an hundred chariots.
1 Chronicles 18:4- And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen: David also houghed all the chariot horses, but reserved of them an hundred chariots.
the problem with "our" image isn't where it says "our" image in plural, but where it doesn't. god says,
quote:נַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ
plural. "let us make man in our image, as our likeness." but then, the bible says in the very next verse
quote:וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם בְּצַלְמוֹ
singular. "and god made the man in his own image." strange, right? and it's not that they just fudged the vowels, you'd have changed that nun and the beginning of asah (make) into an alef.
he does it again, in genesis 11, too, also quickly followed by a singular action. this just seems to be god's way that he talks to himself. there's no "jesus" or anyone else there, because the actions that actually take place are all grammatically singular.