The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread

Rrhain, I'm not going on your segway. You're simply hijacking this thread with repeated same-oles that you're not going to get any more answers on. Move on or I'll simply ignore you. I'm not interested at this time in photons or learning more about them.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Then the solution to settling this debate is about the properties of space and what property of space causes it to curve.1. Buzsaw says any observance of curvature is perception of forces, matter and energy existing in space/area, space having no properties capable of curvature; it's only property being existing unbounded area.2. Conventional physics says space itself curves, has force and energy properties and is finite.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I have never denied that the time dimension does not exist. You are misrepresenting my position which is that time has no bearing on whether my bar model will curve or not in a 3D spatial dimension universe.I am saying that the bar has no non-spatial dimensions which are capable of causing it's curvature, and that includes time. Therefore it would extend continuously without curving if enough energy and matter were applied to it.This debate is about spatial dimensions of a bar. To insist that the non-spatial dimension of time must be considered in this bar model debate is to apply equal spatial value to time dimension that actual spatial dimensions have. As I have shown to be the case this essentially renders space as two dimensional since length and width become one one dimensional line and height becomes the other one dimensional line over time since the height dimensional line curves to become parallel to the width/length line capable of curvature. That's why conventional science uses a 2D model to model the universe.For the bar model to curve it's length dimension must be curved and it must curve continuously if extended. It can never have three uncurved dimensions. My bar model is straight, uncurved and not bended. Imo, there is no property of space capable of causing curvature to the model.For the above reason I repeat: This debate will not be resolved so long as there are different POVs on what the properties of space are. Space is invisible. Imo, nobody can empirically establish what the properties of space are or whether it does indeed curve.I am being maligned as ignorant and bullheaded because I don't consider space to have energy and force properties, it being only space/area in which forces, energy and matter exist.As I understand the position of my counterparts, it is allegedly forces and energy properties of space which allegedly causes it's alleged curvature.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I don't see my spaceview as flat. Are you thinking of Johnlofton or am I not understanding what you mean by flat?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. All space is inclusive in the Universe. My hypothesis of space is that it is infinite area in which all forces, matter and energy exist. It would be infinitely high, infinitely wide and infinitely deep. I don't know how that equates to flat.2. I don't deny local curvature of the surface of the earth and other global bodies. However I do deny curvature of the axis of the earth and global bodies. The axis is straight and not curved regardless of the size of the body.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. Space's only properties is that it exists and that it is area in which all forces, energy and matter exists. Space/area has no property in it capable of curvature. You cannot empirically refute that, nor can I empirically substantiate it.2. A straight dimension of a 3D spatial model is a line between two points not bended and not curved.As I understand, it is the non-spatial dimension of time which is allegedly attributed to space's alleged curvature; curvature which allegedly originated at the singularity event of the alleged BBT. What properties of it are directly visible to your eyes? Like you, I cannot prove what I understand the properties of it to be. 1. Imo, you are directly observing forces and/or energy and/or matter existing in space and not space itself.2. It does nothing to my model unless you can prove that forces, energy and/or matter are properties of space.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Yes, I reject the idea that space can bend. See my message 267. What property of space can be affected by gravity

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. All I can say is that Einstein's prediction of the parahelion of Mercury was based on whether the GR prediction of it's phenomenal behavior was correct. That is debatable and this isn't the place to go in depth on that. This depends on whether GR space theory is correct.2. How can a universe spaceview be flat with three infinite immeasurable dimensions? Does that mean that a straight line between two points existing within a such spaceview will be uncurved or does it mean that the universe is flat?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

LOL! If proof is the requisite for falsifiability, then conventional science's spaceview is unfalsifiable.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. Enough energy/matter applied simply means for it to extend to a length dimension relative to the model which is a bar capable of continuous extension.2. Those words are no more unfair and magical than many words and phrases which conventional science uses relative to various models on various topics.3. A rigid 3D bar has other properties applicable to my argument which an imaginary geometric one dimensional line does not have. It has mass properties which must be changed for the ends of it to connect. If you curve or bend the length dimension of a not curved, not bended rigid straight bar the mass of it is affected. I agree, except that my space model has properties (and I am competent enough to remain unempirically refuted/KO'd thus far, one vs a dozen or so of counterparts having lasted in the space sluggout ring for going on 10 rounds. )Properties of space:1. Space exists.
2. Space is infinite in all directions, having at least 3 infinite spatial dimensions.
3. Space is area capable of being occupied by all existing energy, forces and matter.
4. Space has an infinite non-spatial time dimension. Which of the four properties of my spaceview do not match the possibility of reality?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

[qs=Straggler]1) Any model that includes time and 3 spatial dimensions is necessarily a 4D model. Regardless of curvature. Regardless of bent straight bars.I would agree. Agreed but 2D model is not analogous to the universe. No way. No. Nobody is suggesting it because they don't want to admit that that is the effect that 4D has.1. The alleged expansion of three spatial dimensions and one time dimension space originated at the BBT singularity event. (allegedly)2. Curvature of spatial three dimension space allegedly began at the BBT singularity event.3. The BBT singularity allegedly originated from a submicroscopic spherical compression which expanded likely into a curved formed mass.4. If the length, dimension, the depth dimension and the height dimensions of the curved form become curved, [b]the time dimension allows for the dimensions (in time) to become parallel which would be three parallel geometric RM lines rather than Euclidean lines at 90 degree angles to one another.5. En effect, you have three spatial dimensions (parallel geometric lines) capable of curvature and one time dimension which allows time for the curvature from the BBT singularity event. If the expansion were sudden factoring no time, the dimensions would expand geometrically 3D, all dimensions being at 90 degree angles to one another rather than parallel.NOTE: After thinking it over since my last explanation of this I have revised from 2 parallel spatial D lines to 3 parallel spatial lines which are effected. It still has the effect of 2 dimensions, due to the geometric lines being parallel.The problem is whether space has the property of curvature. That is the problem we will likely never come to terms on in this debate.Again, the buck stops with whether the BBT is factual or not. I say not, because there was allegedly no place for the energy to have existed, no time for it to have happened and no area for it to expand to. That's magic and fantasy in the extreme. 1. I believe physicists have, in good faith, devised unrealistic and in some cases, extremely complicated and debatable hypotheses for lending support to the BBT. Space curvature and expansion is paramount to the BBT. Without them it would have no basis.2. Thanks to you and each of my counterparts in this debate, I have had to learn a lot about your POV and research scientific terminology etc. I know you and others have expended a lot of time and effort into this debate and appreciate the input whether or not we agree.3. This thread has given me a lot to think about, like on nights when I lay in bed, the body resting and the mind very busy.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

LOL! I use a 3D model to explain mine. Many conventional educators use a bogus 2D model to explain theirs.Unlike the conventional real universe, the 2D sphere model expands into something, has an edge/surface and has an exterior source of energy for expansion.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Have you ever done a 10 page debate, one on a pack of a dozen or so? I've done some, including this one. FYI, some of my messages answer questions from more than one needing responses and some of the messages don't justify the time it takes to respond.I don't know what you have on your plate, but mine includes running a sole proprietor full time business, church activities, necessary travel to multiple business locations, one nearly an hour away, ebay sales, gardening, lawn work, book keeping (I do my own), etc, etc. besides the time I put into this board.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Once curved, all dimensions of space would become parallel to the mass horizon of the universe as I understand it. The only way for them to be orthogonal would be for no time dimension to be applied. Correct, anybody?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

ABE: Inappropriate answer deleted, having time to think over. Lyx2no, as with others, have all been kind, in that they have participated and attempted to convey what they believe is truth. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.