The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread

Best go tell that to NASA and the ESA who use General Relativity. I'm sure they'll be very interested to hear your objections.....GR has been empirically established countless times. It gives a degree of accuracy far greater than "flat" Newtonian mechanics. How many times does this simple fact have to be conveyed to you?Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This was done long long ago. The trouble is, Buz, you don't even have any clue as to the meaning of the words you areusing. You do not understand force, energy, never mind space. Most people think that their understanding that applies in their garage applies to the Universe at large. They are simply uninformed of the nature of reality, and they will probably remain that way for their entire lives. You *INSIST* that your understanding that applies in your garage should apply to the Universe at large. There's a word for people who think like that. It is 'idiot'. What does "occupy" mean, Buz? How does something occupy space? What does that mean? Is there no space where that thing is? Does space fill in behind that thing, as that thing moves around? Buz, why are you lying? You have been told that BBT is based upon General Relativity, and it is General Relativity that assigns these properties space - General Relativity, that is one of the two most successfully tested theories ever devised. So why do you keep bringing up BBT and makign these claims? BBT has nothing to do with any of this. What has the BBT to do with any of this? When I was five, I informed my best friend that nothing could travel faster than light. He replied that some dragsters could. This is the level of your understanding, Buz. Yes, Buz, you have scored punches - in your own stupid face. Why am I reminded of the Black Knight? oh, you mean you're not going to go to Nobel and claim the last 100 years' worth of Physics prizes then? Not just yet... Fucking hell, where is that ROTFLMAO emoticon when you need it? Yes, the logic and common sense that works perfectly well in your garage. But surely only the most pig-ignorant fuck-wit would try to claim that his garage-based understanding would enable him to overturn 100 years of quantum, relativistic, and cosmological physics? Don't you think, Buz?

You make my point, Dr Physicist. You remind me of Slick Willy Clinton who made an issue of the word is in testimony. Some aspects of science GR etc have moved so far from reality that terms like occupy become obscured beyond reason.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

As I thought I had made clear, Buz - garage level common sense does not apply. If you insist that it does, you're an idiot. Simple as.

You are right. Some aspects of GR are very difficult to understand by people who don't know the math behind it.But, you see buzz me man, Gr does this one thing with all that high-falutin' talk it does. It makes testable and repeatable predictions, It says 'we are going to find this out in the universe' and you know, that is what we find later on. It says 'if we do this kind of experiment, we should get xxx kind of result', and we do.Space might not be curved in the presence of matter like GR says, but by golly by gosh, things act as if it was. Now, I always said, if it looks like a duck , and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.Now, you see what makes them think space is curved? It is predictions about what will be found. It is testing of those predictions. Just cause you don't understand it. It is using a distant galaxy as a
'gravity lens'You see, Buzz, as much as the eggheads like to figure out how to prove things they think are true match the predictions there is one thing they like even more. And that is to prove the 'standard model' wrong.

It has just occurred to me that you think that when we say that a straight bar will curve in curved spacetime you think that the bar really does bend. That it really does react as though a force were applied.That is not what we are saying. Curved space does not impose a superman bending bars of steel type force. The molecular structure of the bar remains unchanged. There is no bar bending force. There is simply a straight bar in curved spacetime. Hence the importance of your definition of straight.If you curve/bend a steel bar by force the material stresses and fractures. A bar curved as a result of curved spacetime will show no evidence of having being bent. There is no stressing or fracturing of the material. By any physical measure the bar is straight. Even in curved spacetime.You do understand this don't you?

It has been argued throughout the thread that the two ends of my rigid not bended not curved bar model will indeed join, the bar remaining not bended if extended far enough. I'm still unconvinced that space has properties capable of this magical, illogical feat.

Just for one moment, for the sake of argument if nothing else, lets assume that curvature is indeed a property of space.
If space does indeed curve where does the "straight" bar go if it does not curve?

The bar goes through the energy, force and matter area of the infinite universe and into infinite space/area remaining uncurved and unbended refuting curvature of space and substantiating infinite space. It would be indicative that perceived curvature applies to forces, energy and matter in space and not space itself which has only properties of existing area in which all forces, matter and energy exist.Abe: If space did indeed curve, the bar would overpower the curvature and remain uncurved and not bended. If the bar curves with alleged curved space, the length dimension of it remains straight in one direction and bends in the other direction. The bar becomes a ring and no longer straight. You can't deny that the bar will be bended if it curves. That's the logic that I cannot just wave off and dismiss to satisfy GR science. Edited by Buzsaw, : Add paragraph.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

What property of the bar allows It to remain unbended?Any of you mathematicians out there know what umpteen plus one equals?

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Buzsaw writes:

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It has been argued throughout the thread that the two ends of my rigid not bended not curved bar model will indeed join, the bar remaining not bended if extended far enough. I'm still unconvinced that space has properties capable of this magical, illogical feat.

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How can you know that without a definition of "straight" to compare your bar against?If we have a definition of "straight" and can determine if something is "straight" and yet still observe it bending, would that not be evidence that it was space itself that was curving?What is your definition of "straight"? If it isn't the path a photon takes, what is it?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Abe: If space did indeed curve, the bar would overpower the curvature and remain uncurved and not bended. If the bar curves with alleged curved space, the length dimension of it remains straight in one direction and bends in the other direction. The bar becomes a ring and no longer straight. You can't deny that the bar will be bended if it curves. That's the logic that I cannot just wave off and dismiss to satisfy GR science.

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Your "logic" has already been answered in this thread. If you only demand that the bar is straight in our three-dimensional space (the only possibility for a real iron bar) your "logic" fails, because it will join up, with no "magical" or "illogical" properties required. If you demand that it be straight and defy the curvature of space you are demanding that your bar has "magical" and (what you would call) "illogical" properties and becomes irrelevant to the question of whether space actually does curve - so again your "logic" fails.

Buzsaw writes:

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The bar goes through the energy, force and matter area of the infinite universe and into infinite space/area remaining uncurved and unbended

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How can you tell? What can you do to determine if it remains "straight"? What is your definition of "straight"? If it isn't the path a photon takes, what is it?And if we directly observe it bending even though it is "straight," wouldn't that be evidence that space itself curves?

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It would be indicative that perceived curvature applies to forces, energy and matter in space and not space itself

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But if it is straight and yet still bends, what does that mean? You need to define what you mean by "straight." If it isn't the path a photon takes, what is it?

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If space did indeed curve, the bar would overpower the curvature and remain uncurved and not bended.

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How can that be? Why would something that exists in space not be affected by the curvature of the space in which it exists?At any rate, your claim requires a definition of "straight" which you still haven't provided. If it isn't the path a photon takes, what is it?

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If the bar curves with alleged curved space, the length dimension of it remains straight in one direction and bends in the other direction.

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Why? Why can't it curve in all directions? And how can you claim this without a definition of "straight"? If it isn't the path a photon takes, what is it?

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The bar becomes a ring and no longer straight.

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Why is it no longer "straight"? What do you mean by "straight"? If it isn't the path a photon takes, what is it?

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You can't deny that the bar will be bended if it curves.

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If the bar curves, yes. But we're letting the bar remain "straight" and instead are looking at the space the bar exists in. But, of course, that requires a definition of "straight" which you still haven't provided. If it isn't the path a photon takes, what is it?

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That's the logic that I cannot just wave off and dismiss to satisfy GR science.

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But GR works and it specifically requires space to curve. If space doesn't curve, how does GR work? Newtonian space, which does not curve space, cannot account for the direct observations we have made. It is now your responsibility to show your work.What do you mean by "straight"? If it isn't the path a photon takes, what is it?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Jeez Buz that is quite a bar you have there!! It bursts through the infinite universe? Into space outside the universe? How can there be space outside the universe? Where is this "infinite space" that is not part of the "infinite universe"?Is this (to use your word) "logical"? The trouble is that this is not how it actually works. By any physical measure or criteria the 3D bar remains straight in curved spacetime. Structurally it is straight. If an infinite laser beam is shone along it perfectly parallel it will remain perfectly parallel and straight. If your bar were made of the most brittle substance on Earth, a substance that would snap at the mere hint of physically bending the bar would still remain intact in curved spacetime. Curvature imposes no forces. Curvature simply changes what the nature of "straight" actually is.That is why Rrhain keeps asking you what you mean by "straight". By any physical measure you can make the bar is straight. That is the point. If you are going to limit nature to common sense derived from limited human perception then the world would be a very very different place. Are radio waves transmitting sound from one location to another common sense? Atoms - According to the "classical" model of the atom you are 99.99% empty space!! Is that common sense? Do you deny the existence of atoms? Are these things "logical"?GR is the result of logic applied to observation. The results have been empirically tested numerous times by multiple means. We rely on these results every day for technological purposes.Do you really have the insight to deny all of this on the basis of your perecived sense of common sense "logic"? An insight that escaped Einstein? An insight that none of the physicists on the planet today can see? Are you really that clever?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Buzsaw,How about the following model? Take a piece of paper and draw a straight line on it. Then bend the paper such that you bring one end of the line near the other end. Then imagine that you are a two-dimensional being living on the surface of the paper. Space as you know it has only two dimensions, you cannot directly observe a third dimension. (Just like the real-world Buzsaw is stuck in three dimensions, the paper-world Buzsaw is stuck in two-dimensions.)Now look at a two-dimensional photon that takes the path of the line on the paper. What does it look like to you as a two-dimensional being? It looks like the photon takes a straight path, because you cannot see the curvature of the paper. All you see is a straight line. And, in fact, it is a straight line, in two dimensions.If I may suggest a definition of "straight", a definition Rrhain is so desperately awaiting from you, it would be "the shortest possible path between two points in space". If your space is the paper you live on (i.e. you can only move in the two dimensions your world consists of) then the shortest possible path from one end of the line to the other is the line itself, following, unbeknownst to you, the 3D-curvature of the paper.Hope this helps.