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Member (Idle past 865 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Pick and Choose Fundamentalism | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Brian Member (Idle past 4988 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Well Peg, despite nearly 2000 years of close scrutiny by Christian scholars not a single prophecy has been verified, strange one that.
How many people would you reckon have tried to verify a prophecy, a few million perhaps? And not a single one has done so, I know what thpse stats point to.
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3130 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Removed because inadvertant duplication.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3130 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Peg writes: Im looking at those verses and i dont see what you are seeing. Because you will justify anything in order to keep your faith even the rape, enslavement and murder of little children and infants. It is sick and perverse.
Peg writes: this verse is telling slave owners that if they beat their slaves and cause death, they were to be punished for it. We have similar laws ourselves...if you bludgeon someone to death its murder and you'll be charged but if you get into a fight with someone, its only an assault charge. So it is ok to beat someone up as long as they able to get up two days later?
According to God slavery is not only ok it is commanded as shown here:
Leviticus 25:1, 44 writes: The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai...'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Deuteronomy 20:10-14 writes: When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. If that is not a commandement I don't know what one is than. So evidently God encourages and commands chattel slavery just not among the Isrealites themselves. And if you beat up your slave as long as he or she can get up after two days and work no charges are pressed. So if God condones slavery (even in the NT slavery is condoned and never condemned or criticized much less abolished) why was slavery back in the 1700 and 1800s in America wrong? Why the push for equal rights? According to the Bible the Confederate South was correct in there upholding the practice of slavery. In fact, they specifically used these passages in the Bible to defend their "right" to practice slavery as shown here:
Rev Buckner Payne writes: God created different races, masters and a race of servants. He did not intend intermarriage. Rev Alexander Campbell, leader of the American Restoration Movemnt writes: There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral. Rev. R. Furman writes: The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example. Jefferson David writes: [Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts. Peg writes: Myself writes: Judges Judges 21:10-14- So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. This is what you are to do, they said. Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin. They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. this account says nothing about these women being brought into the camp to be raped. Read the rest of the account and you'll see that these women were made the wives of the soldiers. Oh you mean these verses?
Judges 21:23-25 writes: So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, "Go and hide in the vineyards and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin. When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, 'Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war, and you are innocent, since you did not give your daughters to them.' So that is what the Benjamites did. While the girls were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them. The Israelite men hid, kidnapped more women and carried them off to their camps. What do you think they did with them? Square dance?
Peg writes: Myself writes: If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master. who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money. what has this got to do with rape???It seems to me that female slaves were protected under this law because they COULD NOT be used for sex and nothing more. If the man found the girl pleasing, she was to become his wife with ALL marital rights that went along with that. You ignore the other passages I presented about rape and pick the one about selling people as sex slaves. What do you think "If she does not please the master" means, putting on a juggling act? So it is ok to sell people as sex slaves? Even children and your own daughter. Oh, like these rights?1. The right to only be let free if her owner/husband does not provide food and shelter. Wow, even most sex slaves get the basic neccessities of life. 2. Zero say in when and where she can go or who she can marry. 3. The right to be beaten to an inch of her life as long as she can get up two days later. What a great example for abused and battered women and children around the world.
Peg writes: this account does not say anything about rape either. Look at verse "And preserve alive for yourselves all the little ones among the women who have not known the act of lying with a male"These women were spared for the purpose of marriage, not to be raped. So as long as these Israelites later "married" the virgin women and girls that isn't rape. Why would they kill the non-virgin women and keep the virgin ones? So I guess if molester kidnapped your 16 year old daughter, forced her to "marry" him and then forced her to have sex with him, that is not rape.
Peg writes: these are laws pertaining to a man who commits an act of rape. Its not telling the Isrealite men to rape women! Its about punishment for those who do. Obviously it was against the law, not for it. My point is why should the women be stoned alive along with her rapist? Why do we not do this in today's society? Besides according to the following scripture it is ok to rape a girl as long as you pay the girl's father 50 sheckles and marry her for inconveniencing him:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 writes: If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he [the rapist] must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. The girl does not even get a choice in this, either to marry, leave or divorce the rapist. What sick fuck makes the rape victim marry the rapist? Women according to the Hebrew god (and allah) are not considered anything more than property (chattel).
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 writes: When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her. Again forcible rape is condoned here. Or disagree with the definition of rape: any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. Being a Sexual Assault Victim Intervention (SAVI) advocate for the Navy myself, I find your tollerance and outright condonense of these acts vile, evil and outright disgusting. Evidently this is ok to you: Stoning:
Bloody slaughter of innocent children:
Torture & slavery:
Child sex slaves:
Murdering young innocent children:
(BTW, do not even bring up the topic of abortion because I am anti-abortion as a means of birth control except to save the life of the mother, incest, rape, etc) Why am I showing the pictures? Because I am trying to make a poignant, unequivocal point:
If it [slavery/rape/child abuse/etc] is not ok now or back in the 1800s why is it ok, condoned and commanded by your god 2000 years ago. At any time he could have said it was wrong and commanded its abolition. At any time. Why didn't he? (I have my own opinion why, namely that this entity does not exist but would like to hear your answer). Do you have children? Do you show your children these aweful passages in which your Hebrew god not only condones and allows these things to happen but undeniably and unequivocally COMMANDS it. Again, just choose to ignore it and justify away and brain wash yourself that its ok. That is why these injustice, inhumane practices continue to this day. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : Correct spelling & grammer For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3130 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Peg writes: and Wars happened, and the isrealite soldiers did kill people, but in those days, the Isrealites were the target of many attacks by the surrounding nations. Would it be right for God to say that they could not defend themselves and their inheritance? Defending one's country and the outright bloody slaughter/ ethnicide/infanticide for expansionist purposes are two different things. Take it from someone who has served in the defense of his country for the last 16 years of his life. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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themasterdebator Inactive Member |
edited for being off topic
Edited by themasterdebator, : No reason given.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4218 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Peg writes: according to you perhaps. Most likely according to virtually all Atheists, Agnostics, Deists & a large number of moderate Theists. The point is that there is no evidence, other than the hearsay evidence from scripture, and since the positive evidence as to who and when the various books of scripture were written, gives even less a real point of any prophesies as having been fulfilled. Edited by bluescat48, : typo There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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Hill Billy Member (Idle past 5383 days) Posts: 163 From: The hills Joined: |
Brian writes:
That’s a pretty bad analogy HB I get how you might be uncomfortable with it but face it, the analogy fits perfectly. In that post I also questioned your ability to employ the process of thought.Are you attempting to prove the validity of my questions? With predestination I would have no choice Certainly, however foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
my inserting the steel rod has no bearing on my eternal life.
Perhaps not, but accepting responsability for your choices does.
if you are one of the people who God knows will never accept Jesus as your saviour then there’s nothing you can do about it. What? Insert red hot poker analogy here. I see where the head smashing the monitor thing comes from. It must be frustrating to be so confused. Again, observing someone making a choice is not the same thing as making the choice for them.
if you are destined for heaven bud, then you go there regardless of your own personal plans. Where do you come up with these little gems?Do you really THINK that foreknoweldge and predestination are the same thing? Cause your entire argument reeks of either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. I hope it's just ignorance.
What do I forgiveness for and from whom? I'm sure a quick, independant survey of those in your life would, in fact, reveal a great deal of offences that you could deny responsability for.
why do YOU think I have done something that requires me to ask for forgiveness? Um, cause your human.
Again, what makes you believe this? Well, to start with, the things you write.For example:
that God is responsible for the Fall because he knew the outcome of the test. You expend a great deal of effort attempting to establish that the observer is responsible for the actions of the observed. That dog don't hunt.
I can’t really be bothered Ya, it's gotta be difficult to maintain the illusion that your arguments have substance. The years tell what the days never knew.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3320 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
DA, you still doubt peg is a sociopath? The more posts she makes, the more convinced I am that she has no conscience and will readily commit murder, rape, genocide, and other horrendous crimes without remorse simply because she is incapable of telling the difference between right and wrong.
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3130 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Taz writes: DA, you still doubt peg is a sociopath? The more posts she makes, the more convinced I am that she has no conscience and will readily commit murder, rape, genocide, and other horrendous crimes without remorse simply because she is incapable of telling the difference between right and wrong. She is either a functional sociopath (meaning she minimally conforms to the the warped moral standards dictated by her religion in order to get by, but in reality has no cognizance of societal standards of right and wrong) or she has a severe case of moral compartimantilization in which she abides by one set of rules and standards in the real world and a different set when talking about her faith in the Bible. Trying to see the best in people I would hope for the latter but the end result is the same, a lack of rationality and critical thinking and self-righteous condoning of religious double-standards. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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themasterdebator Inactive Member |
What? Insert red hot poker analogy here. I see where the head smashing the monitor thing comes from. It must be frustrating to be so confused. Again, observing someone making a choice is not the same thing as making the choice for them. I understand you seem to think people who go to hell have made a choice to do so, and while this may be true. They are not the only ones to blame. The one who brought them into existence knowing they will go to hell is also to blame. Nobody chooses to exist or chooses to have certain urges which drive them to that action. God is the only one who does that. God brings me into the world knowing I will go to hell. I had no choice in that matter.
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themasterdebator Inactive Member |
She is either a functional sociopath (meaning she minimally conforms to the the warped moral standards dictated by her religion in order to get by, but in reality has no cognizance of societal standards of right and wrong) or she has a severe case of moral compartimantilization in which she abides by one set of rules and standards in the real world and a different set when talking about her faith in the Bible. Trying to see the best in people I would hope for the latter but the end result is the same, a lack of rationality and critical thinking and self-righteous condonense of religious double standards. I am inclined to go for the second view because I think many Christians do this. They compartmentalize different parts of the Bible based on what they think is important. The New Testament is generally heavily emphasized, with the Old Testament having much less weight, and large parts of the old testament never being mentioned(My church, for instance, while using a broad range of NT gospel readings, was very selective on the Old Testament, many of the stories such as these are never mentioned) and when I went to Catholic School, these sort of verses were ignored. I think this is what Peg is doing. She is placing heaving emphasis on parts of the Bible which show God as merciful and just, and placing minimal importance on the parts that show God ordering the murder of children and condoning slavery and rape. Note that when she encounters an action not even she can justify(the murder of children even though she did try, she admitted she did not have an answer later on), she still refuses to admit it is wrong and instead decides there is some magical answer that would make it okay. Peg: There isn't, as a perfect being, God is not just going to make a "good" choice, he would make the best possible choice. And the best possible choice would involve protecting the lives of innocent children.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Hill Billy writes:
quote: Because you are equivocating. Specifically, you are conflating "foreknowledge" of a conditional with "foreknowledge" of an actual. That is, I know that "if" one applies great heat to one's body, it will burn. This is extrapolation based upon past experience and might conceivably be considered "foreknowledge." But that is very different from the "foreknowledge" involved in knowing that you, personally, are going to do it at precisely 6:47 pm local time on January 12th, 2010. With regard to this topic, the common meaning of "foreknowledge" is of the latter type, not the former. It is akin to the magician asking you to "pick a card, any card." While it certainly seems a random choice for you, the magician is actually "forcing" you (that is the term used) to choose a specific card. If I know that a particular action is definitively going to take place without possibility for error, how can that action not take place? No, this is not "foreknowledge" that "if" you apply great heat to your body that you'll get burned. I mean the "foreknowlege" that you, personally, are going to do it at precisely 6:47 pm local time on January 12th, 2010, no possibility for error. How do you avoid such an action if there is no way my knowledge can be wrong? This type of "foreknowledge" is precisely "predestination." Please let us not be disingenuous and equivocate over what is meant by "foreknowledge."
quote: Huh? If I create an object that I know (due to my "foreknowledge" as described above) is going to fail catastrophically, how am I not responsible for that failure? I created it. Indeed, if I had nothing to do with the scenario by which the catastrophic failure is going to happen, then I have no responsibility no matter how much foreknowledge I have. But if I created the entire scenario by which the failure is going to take place, then how am I not completely responsible? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4958 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
DevilsAdvocate writes: The Israelite men hid, kidnapped more women and carried them off to their camps. What do you think they did with them? Square dance? you assume they raped them because it fits with your warped view of God.The account says they made them their 'WIVES' DevilsAdvocate writes: You ignore the other passages I presented about rape and pick the one about selling people as sex slaves. What do you think "If she does not please the master" means, putting on a juggling act? You did not mention one scripture that command the men to rape anyone. The accounts were all talking about slaves and making the captive women, wives. In the culture of the day, slavery was a normal everyday event. Slaves in those days were much like hired workers except that the slave was considered to legally belong to the owner. Marriage imposed the same 'ownership' rights upon a woman to her husband. And the owner of the slaves were required to provide materially for the slaves. Some people would even choose to become someones slave in order to repay a debt that he could not afford to pay.
DevilsAdvocate writes: If it [slavery/rape/child abuse/etc] is not ok now or back in the 1800s why is it ok, condoned and commanded by your god 2000 years ago. At any time he could have said it was wrong and commanded its abolition. At any time. Why didn't he? (I have my own opinion why, namely that this entity does not exist but would like to hear your answer). It has never been ok and God never said it was ok. He has been putting up with all that humans do, but he has never condoned it. He has allowed us to use our free will and we have abused it.His laws to love your neighbor should have been enough to know that all acts that are unloving are not acceptable, but it seems that the law to love is too hard for us. In dealing with the Isrealite nation, he gave them his laws but they continually went against them. People are the problem, not God. He has wiped out whole nations of people in the past because of their behavior and cruelty toward each other...the Canaanites for example, Sodom and Gommorrah are another example. Dont ever think that the God of the bible is pleased with what he sees...quote: We have only ourselves to blame for our behavior, no one else...its our community, our society, our nations that act in such ways. Pretty soon God will be calling everyone to account and the madness will stop. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4958 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
themasterdebator writes: I think this is what Peg is doing. She is placing heaving emphasis on parts of the Bible which show God as merciful and just, and placing minimal importance on the parts that show God ordering the murder of children and condoning slavery and rape. i've adequately shown how those scriptures in no way command rape. Slavery was an invention by mankind, not God. He put regulations on it for his people because without regulations of some sort, humans would abuse it...and abuse it they certainly did. I agree that he did command that the canaanites be killed, just as our governments command their armies to kill civilians from enemy nations.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4988 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
I get how you might be uncomfortable with it but face it, the analogy fits perfectly. HB, there is so much wrong with you analogy it is difficult to knowwhere to start. First off, you have you and I, two humans, and a red hot steel rod. How can that possibly be an analogy of one human and one ultimate being? It’s just silly, unless you are saying you are God. Next, we have the fact that you do not know for certain if I am going to insert the steel rod or not, you have no way of knowing. I can work out for myself that it is a bad idea to insert the rod and decide not to. Next, you have not created the situation in which this scenario has arisen, but God has. Next, your interaction with me is also predetermined, it is out of your hands! If you were going to warn me or not actually has nothing to do with you because you are a product of God’s creation the same as I am. Next, If I was going to insert the hot steel rod then I would insert it, there’s nothing you can do about it. You see, even if God was to intervene and stop me inserting the steep rod that would only mean that I was never going to insert the steel rod at all. I could probably find another half dozen or more faults with your analogy, but surely you can see th errors? Let me see if I can break it down to high school language in the hope that you finally get it. As God decides to create the universe and everything in it, He also MUST know every single event that will ever happen in that universe because he is omniscient. Yahweh, the God of the Bible, is portrayed in the Bible as the creator of the universe and everything in it, Yahweh is THE creator. So we have two conditions for the argument. God is omniscient. God created the Universe and everything in it. So, this is a simple argument. Since God is omniscient the He MUST have known before He created the Universe every single thing that would ever happen within it, otherwise he would not be omniscient. He has to know how many snowflakes fell on New York between 6am and 12.21 am on the 6th of December 1967, or how many hairs fell out Napoleon’s head as he brushed his hair on 12th August 1811, or how much tax money Kent Hovind stole, all before He even began to create.Here’s the rub, so pay attention. Although it is perfectly possible (although not certain) that God has created many different alternatives that an individual could do, for example driving down a motorway there are many exits we could take, God knew previous to creating the Universe exactly which motorway exit that individual would take. To make it clearer, although God may have created many alternatives for that individual that means that not only would God know what that individual was going to do, He also knew what that individual would not be doing. God has set all the parameters for every event in His creation, He has intentionally created the situation which predetermined the exit off the motorway that individual would take. Thus, God has guaranteed, by His act of creation, exactly what I will be doing every moment of my life. The only way that you can defeat this argument is to reject one of the two premises, feel free to do so.
In that post I also questioned your ability to employ the process of thought. Are you attempting to prove the validity of my questions? I don’t think I need to employ too much thought if you keep these analogies coming. I also hope you notice that it just isnt me that is finding problems with your analogy?
Certainly, however foreknowledge and predestination are not the same thing. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? It’s not difficult to understand, I can only assume that you don’t realise that YOUR foreknowledge and God’s foreknowledge are NOT the same.
Perhaps not, but accepting responsability for your choices does. I’ve never been one for not accepting the consequences of my choices, I have broad shoulders bud.
What? Insert red hot poker analogy here. As we have seen, the poker analogy is severly flawed.
I see where the head smashing the monitor thing comes from. It must be frustrating to be so confused. I’m not confused in the slightest. The head smashing comes from talking to fundies that think snakes can talk, donkeys can talk, the universe is 6000 years old, humans could once live to nearly 1000 years of age, Jesus was the messiah, etc, when it is obvious that none of these are true.
Again, observing someone making a choice is not the same thing as making the choice for them. As far as God and creation goes though it does.
Where do you come up with these little gems? Logic, and reading the Bible. Do you think everyone is going to go to heaven?
Do you really THINK that foreknoweldge and predestination are the same thing? As far as God is concerned it is obvious that they are. He knows before He creates what the choices will be, what is so difficult for you to understand?
Cause your entire argument reeks of either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. Are these the only two options?
I hope it's just ignorance. It’s neither.
I'm sure a quick, independant survey of those in your life would, in fact, reveal a great deal of offences that you could deny responsability for. What makes you so sure of this when you don’t even know me? What is your evidence for this assumption?
Um, cause your human. Okay, another wee look at your logic. A. Why do I need to ask for forgiveness?B. Because you are human. Conclusion, all humans need to ask for forgiveness. Now we need to test the validity of your argument. Strange thing is, it seems that you have provided an argument elsewhere that makes this conclusion invalid. You have stated that children are exempt from all this, so here’s another one of your arguments: A. All humans need to ask for forgivenessB. Children do not need to ask for forgiveness Conclusion, children are not human! (I actually know a trainee teacher who would agree with you!) Critical thinking is not your strong point is it?
You expend a great deal of effort attempting to establish that the observer is responsible for the actions of the observed. That dog don't hunt. The creator IS responsible though. He has predetermined the situations that govern your choices. Yahweh is resposible for creating evil, even the Bible tells us that, why did He even have to do that?
Ya, it's gotta be difficult to maintain the illusion that your arguments have substance. It’s more to do with the balance of time versus the value of the exchange.
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