Pick and Choose Fundamentalism

If God is not wrong in ordering the murder babies and children, that means it is right or 'good' to murder babies and children. Correct? So the children and infants are bloodely butchered because there parents choose to fight for there communities/civilization?So is it ok for me to murder you and sons, take your house, and take your wife and daughters as sex slaves, if God told me too? Do you actually believe this? You really worry me Peg!

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Taz,Not knowing Peg personally I could not say whether or not what your prediction about Peg is true. However, my suspicians are that like most religious people, she really does not truely believe the very words she states (if she did than I would certainly say she is a functional sociopath).What I mean by this is that many religious people will give you the religious "talking points" that they have been brain washed into "believing" without really thinking through the implications of what they believe or say. It is a form of what I would call "shallow thinking" in which a person's emotions override the logical side of there mind resulting in the tendancy to glance over and unknowingly support obvious (even to themselves) contradictory ethical values (i.e. defending the Biblical mandate by God to murder innocent children and infants while at the same time advocating and promoting the "pro-life" anti-abortion movement). In other words she is enmeshed in a form of moral cognitive dissonance. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Actually I was defending you Peg. I don't think you are a sociopath just naive. Yes, really! I know this is probably off-topic but I thought this statement needed an answer. Here are a few quotes from Adolph to help you recover from your naivity.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

PEG, I will spell it out for you:DOES GOD FORBID EVERYONE TO MURDER INNOCENT PEOPLE, BABIES, CHILDREN, ETC? YES OR NO?DID GOD HIMSELF ORDER THE KILLING OF BABIES AND INNOCENT CHILDREN. YES OR NO?How is that for a double standard, hyporcitical "do as I say not as I do" relative moral system.You really cannot follow a logical argument can you? What circumstances allow the following to happen: Please, I am all ears. This is just what you are reading out of a 2000+ year old book which has no more credibility than the Illiad and the Odessey. Why do you put so much faith and trust into something that has so little evidence to back it up? Are there any corroborating contemporary stories of Jonah or any other Old Testament character? I am sure some could have been embellshed stories of possibly real people with all the miracles and supernatural events thrown in by later scribes to help propogate these stories but to say that they are 100% true and inerrant is totally baseless conjecture.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Which many people to this day have a hard time rationalizing or accepting as being the best way to have handled that situation. I don't think there is anyone in the decision process of designing the atom bomb who had no qualms about the decision we had to make to end the war. Many of these same people suffered mental breakdowns and am sure struggled with this decision the rest of there lives. The choice was choosing the lesser of two evils. Whether it was right or wrong is highly debatable as I don't think the terms 'right' and 'wrong' really make since in this situation. It was more a matter of the fight for survival and freedom.This was not the case of the Israellites and the Canaanites. It was the Israelites who invaded the land of Canaan and who initiated the hostility, not vice versa.Besides, God is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. Humans are not.How difficult would it be for your god to have moved the Israelites to a location where there were no other people to slaughter. How hard would have it been to show up in a burning bush, etc to the Canaanites and show them his ominpotent and "kind" nature and show them the error of there ways instead of bloodely massacaring them and their children.Your analogy falls flat.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

So you think it is good and right that God murders innocent children and babies (is God not all-good as well as all-powerful)? How does that work in your discombobulated brain with promoting pro-life anti-abortion causes?So are you saying since Hitler, Po Pot and other mass murderurs ordered and coordinated the deliberate massacring of innocent men, women and children that it is ok if 'God' does it too? Please elaborate. Civil disobedience demands the slaughter of children? Wow, are you sure you are living in the right society? So Po Pot, Hitler, Stalin, the Hebrew god of the Bible, etc have the right to kill innocent people when they disobey there laws no matter how horendous? And that makes it correct? Because no one is basing there entire moral systems and forcing people through legislative and other political means to follow the disciplinary practices of Mary Poppins. However, that is not the case in the US and elsewhere where the disasterous results of religious fundamentalism trumps rationality and universal equal rights.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

So you don't think the bloody massacring of babies and children is inhumane and horrible no matter who does it? Wow, how is the bloody killing by the Hebrew god of anyone any different than any of the massacres that have occured throughout history i.e the Holocaust, the Killing Fields, etc? Why do you not question any of the stories of a god who not only condones but commands the deliberate inhumane massacring of babies and children, the rape and pillage of entire cities of people, ethnicide, slavery, torture, child abuse, making sex slaves out of young girls and women, the damnation of the entire human race to undescribable pain and torure for eternity and other horrendous acts in the name of Biblical morality.On top of that, you want us to believe your made-up god is good, loving and kind and base our framework of morality off of this.
You are out of your fucking mind. If you want to believe this fairy tale fine, but do not ask us to jump off the cliff with you or force my children to. I am sorry it is useless trying to talk sense into someone who cannot even see the glaring contradictions you yourself acknowledge here: If the god of the Hebrew in the Bible is merciful, I would hate to see an unmerciful person? How much unmerciful could someone be than to needlessly slaughter innocent children and infants? Sorry I am not letting you off the hook on this one. If you want others to understand your worldview (I assume this is why you are on this discussion board in the first place) you need to give us a rational reason why.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

So it is ok if a divine omniscient, omnipotent entity kills innocent children and babies but not humans?This is like telling your children it is wrong to be a bully and beat up little kids smaller than them than you go and murder a kid in your front yard for picking flowers out of yedour flower b. How are your kids going to react?

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

You know it is in there Peg. It has been repeated on this board a thousand times over. You just plausibly deny its occurance because you selectively choose not read the passages because it might cause some consternation and cause you to waiver in your faith.However for the sake of other lurkers I will give a few disconcerting excerpts (maybe illustrations will help you ):Torture/Child Abuse: Wow, not much different than the furnaces of Auschwitz and other Nazi extermination camps. Oh, what a loving god. Rape/Sex Slaves: Ethnicide:Massacre of the Aradites (Numbers 21:1-3) / Massacre of the Amorites
(Deuteronomy 2:26-34) / Massacre of the Bashanites (Numbers 21:33-35) Deuteronomy 7:16

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Removed because inadvertant duplication.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Because you will justify anything in order to keep your faith even the rape, enslavement and murder of little children and infants. It is sick and perverse. So it is ok to beat someone up as long as they able to get up two days later? According to God slavery is not only ok it is commanded as shown here: If that is not a commandement I don't know what one is than. So evidently God encourages and commands chattel slavery just not among the Isrealites themselves.And if you beat up your slave as long as he or she can get up after two days and work no charges are pressed.So if God condones slavery (even in the NT slavery is condoned and never condemned or criticized much less abolished) why was slavery back in the 1700 and 1800s in America wrong? Why the push for equal rights? According to the Bible the Confederate South was correct in there upholding the practice of slavery. In fact, they specifically used these passages in the Bible to defend their "right" to practice slavery as shown here: Oh you mean these verses? The Israelite men hid, kidnapped more women and carried them off to their camps. What do you think they did with them? Square dance? You ignore the other passages I presented about rape and pick the one about selling people as sex slaves. What do you think "If she does not please the master" means, putting on a juggling act?So it is ok to sell people as sex slaves? Even children and your own daughter.Oh, like these rights?
1. The right to only be let free if her owner/husband does not provide food and shelter. Wow, even most sex slaves get the basic neccessities of life.
2. Zero say in when and where she can go or who she can marry.
3. The right to be beaten to an inch of her life as long as she can get up two days later.What a great example for abused and battered women and children around the world. So as long as these Israelites later "married" the virgin women and girls that isn't rape. Why would they kill the non-virgin women and keep the virgin ones? So I guess if molester kidnapped your 16 year old daughter, forced her to "marry" him and then forced her to have sex with him, that is not rape. My point is why should the women be stoned alive along with her rapist? Why do we not do this in today's society?Besides according to the following scripture it is ok to rape a girl as long as you pay the girl's father 50 sheckles and marry her for inconveniencing him: The girl does not even get a choice in this, either to marry, leave or divorce the rapist. What sick fuck makes the rape victim marry the rapist? Women according to the Hebrew god (and allah) are not considered anything more than property (chattel). Again forcible rape is condoned here. Or disagree with the definition of rape: any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.Being a Sexual Assault Victim Intervention (SAVI) advocate for the Navy myself, I find your tollerance and outright condonense of these acts vile, evil and outright disgusting.Evidently this is ok to you:Stoning: Bloody slaughter of innocent children: Torture & slavery: Child sex slaves: Murdering young innocent children: (BTW, do not even bring up the topic of abortion because I am anti-abortion as a means of birth control except to save the life of the mother, incest, rape, etc)Why am I showing the pictures? Because I am trying to make a poignant, unequivocal point: If it [slavery/rape/child abuse/etc] is not ok now or back in the 1800s why is it ok, condoned and commanded by your god 2000 years ago.At any time he could have said it was wrong and commanded its abolition. At any time. Why didn't he? (I have my own opinion why, namely that this entity does not exist but would like to hear your answer).Do you have children? Do you show your children these aweful passages in which your Hebrew god not only condones and allows these things to happen but undeniably and unequivocally COMMANDS it.Again, just choose to ignore it and justify away and brain wash yourself that its ok. That is why these injustice, inhumane practices continue to this day. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : Correct spelling & grammer

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Defending one's country and the outright bloody slaughter/ ethnicide/infanticide for expansionist purposes are two different things. Take it from someone who has served in the defense of his country for the last 16 years of his life.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

She is either a functional sociopath (meaning she minimally conforms to the the warped moral standards dictated by her religion in order to get by, but in reality has no cognizance of societal standards of right and wrong) or she has a severe case of moral compartimantilization in which she abides by one set of rules and standards in the real world and a different set when talking about her faith in the Bible. Trying to see the best in people I would hope for the latter but the end result is the same, a lack of rationality and critical thinking and self-righteous condoning of religious double-standards.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Actually my view of your god (and my god at one point in time) was 'warped' by reading the Bible in its entirity not just cherry picking as you and many other religious people do. If you do not find rape, pillaging, infanticide, ethnicide and other attrocities commanded by God in the Bible warped and twisted, than you truely are a sociopathic nutcase.How do you define rape Peg? Let me repeat the analogy I used earlier so it sticks in your brain. If a man kidnapped your 16 year old daughter, forced her to "marry" him and then forced her to have sex with him; would you consider that rape?Do you really think these virgin women and girls after having there husbands and fathers KILLED, and being KIDNAPPED by enemy soldiers and taken to the soldiers camps and forced to be "married" by these said soldiers, had consensual sex with their oppressors? So do you or do you not consider forcing women and young girls to have sex without their concent, rape? It is a yes or no question. So sex slaves have a choice in whether they have sex with there masters? I think not. This is a clear case of rape which your god clearly allows to occur.The following is not rape/sex slavery? Selling your daughter as a sex slave isn't condoning and encouraging rape? What is the difference between this and selling your kids out as sex slaves in today's society? God is not only condoning rape he is single-handedly making it occur. I showed you several dozen scriptures where God COMMANDED the pillaging and murder of entire villages including children and infants. The evidence is there you just choose to ignore it.I was wrong about you Peg you have some deep psychological issues which you need to work on. Peg, condoning and allowing are synonmous. If you allow something to happen you are in fact condoning it.In this respect I have to agree with Dawkins take on it: Even some of the most intilligent and intelectual minds of history have had serious issues with the Hebrew god of the OT: Peg, I grow tired of arguing with you on this. You have no interest in seeing anything from anyones perspective but your own and it is useless arguing with you since you cannot follow simple logic.I on the other hand was a Christian at one point in my life and have seen things from both sides of the fence. I grew up in a Christian family, my grandfather and father were both ordained ministers as well as several of my uncles, I as well as the majority of my family went to Christian colleges, I gave my life to Jesus at the age of 8 and was baptized again when I was in my early 20's, I read my Bible and prayed daily and married a Christian women, and I defended the cause of Christianity for nearly 30 years. However, through self-study, education and frank and earnest sole-searching I discovered how steeped in self-deception I actually was. As a result I saw that Christianity like all other religions is a emotional and societal crutch and had zero emperical evidence to support it and a slew of moral, scientific and historical contradictions, errors and out-right fabrication. As a non-religious person, I am now happier than I have been in my entire life and would not trade it for the world.I hope you find happiness and joy in this life rather than hoping for a blissful existence in an afterlife that has no evidence of its existence.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Don't try to blameshift and move the goalposts. DID OR DID NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE CONDONE AKA ALLOW THE PRACTICE OF SLAVERY AND SELLING THEIR CHILDREN AS SEX SLAVES TO OCCUR? It is a yes or no question.Talk about moral relativism. Why is it ok by God to sell your daughter as sex slave 2000 years ago but not today?In modern law, if you allow/condone/enable a crime to occur and it is within your power to prevent, intercede or at least try to act against this crime and you do nothing or allow it to happen than you can be tried under the law as an accessory to the crime. When did your god prevent any of these acts from occuring? Why was he more worried about the amount adornment in the tent by those who grovelled at his feet than the slaughter, rape and enslavement of innocent children and other attrocities?So why should your god not be tried and convicted for enabling and sometimes commanding the occurrance of these horrendous acts to occur. By the way a great book, play and movie about this very subject is "The Trial of God" (also 'Night' is a sombering depiction of the terrors of the Holocaust) by Elie Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor and Auschwitz concentration camp inmate, in which a group of Jews in a Nazi concentration camp conduct an adhox trial against God for his abandonment of the Jewish people during the Holocaust. My whole argument is in trying to pin down your rationalizing of the worship of a god who specifically commanded and/or condoned (allowed) slavery, ethnicide, infanticide and other attrocities to occur.I even asked you point blank in Message 209Whether these events actually took place or not makes no difference. It is your unquivering justification of these acts which I find disturbing. In what ways where the Hebrew slaves treated any better? Show me some evidence. The Babylonian Code of Hammurabi and the Roman Justinian Code also had laws on slavery and some of the regulations are very similar if not almost identical to the Hebrew ones and some of which were more humane than the Hebrew ones:Regulations restricting maltreatment of prisoners and slaves: Rules restricting endentured servitude: If a debt by a master is not paid, his slaves are to be freed: The children of a slave and a free women cannot be enslaved: The children of a slave and a free women cannot benied their inheritance: Babylonian slaves got medical treatment: Now who is "fail[ing] to take the ancient cultures into consideration"? You have provided zero evidence to back up your claims. But you could beat them to a bloody pulp as long as they could get up two days later. Oh, what a humane, loving god. Again he could have stopped this practice anytime he wanted and did not. Why place restrictions on when people could work and not work yet allow the practice of slavery, sex slaves (even your own daughter), stoning, and other horrendous acts to occur. Sure, whatever you say Peg. You are not fooling anyone. I never implied that these men were raping the women while they were still conducting battle. That may or may not have occurred, I have no clue. However, once they got these virgin women and girls back to there camps and 'married' them, were they willing participants of there rape? Does it really matter if the rape occurred during or after the battle? Really?!? Bullshit. I am quoting directly out of the Bible, how is that misquoting? Misquoting would mean that I am not copying the quote correctly that I am pulling from the Bible. Show me where I did that.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan