Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
0 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   God's Place In Evolution
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2290
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 91 of 190 (604960)
02-16-2011 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by goldrush
02-16-2011 12:23 PM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
Really the testimony of this common legend should behoove one to reconsider the falsifying "physical" evidence.
Why does legend trump evidence?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by goldrush, posted 02-16-2011 12:23 PM goldrush has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 92 of 190 (604961)
02-16-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
02-16-2011 8:08 AM


Re: Animal & Human Knowledge Gap
So produce your evidence that humans didn't have dominion over dinos.
It would probably be best for you to sit-in on a 3rd grade science class for that information.
Are you really claiming primates and dinos co-existed? Seriously?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 02-16-2011 8:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 93 of 190 (604963)
02-16-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by goldrush
02-16-2011 12:23 PM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
Really the testimony of this common legend should behoove one to reconsider the falsifying "physical" evidence.
So you want to just "hand-wave" away the evidence I posted above? Or ignore it entirely?
Why don't you try to address it instead?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by goldrush, posted 02-16-2011 12:23 PM goldrush has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 190 (604967)
02-16-2011 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by goldrush
02-16-2011 12:23 PM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
goldrush writes:
Really the testimony of this common legend should behoove one to reconsider the falsifying "physical" evidence. The common connection though is clear, and does not lie. It speaks for itself.
This is pretty short and pretty simple so I will repeat it here for you.
Have you ever read the Bible?
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 6 God instructs Noah to:
quote:
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."
In the version of the myth found in Genesis 7 we see similar (close but not the same) instructions:
quote:
2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.
We also find similar explanations of what will be destroyed in Genesis 6 it says:
quote:
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earthmen and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the airfor I am grieved that I have made them."
and in Genesis 7:
quote:
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."
In both myths lots of critters get killed, in the myth found in Genesis 6 it seems to be talking about land animals and birds while the myth found in Genesis 7 goes even further and wipes out all living things.
If we play mix and match and take the best scenario from each of the myths we might be able to claim that only the birds and land animals were wiped out based on the passage from the Genesis 6 story and that we have the larger saved population found in Genesis 7.
Based on that mix and match game set we have a situation where all land animals and birds found today will be descended from a population that consisted of at most fourteen critters (seven pairs of clean animals and birds) and at worst case four critters (two pair of unclean animals).
Now that is what I would call a real bottleneck.
We know we can see bottlenecks in the genetic record; a great example is the one in Cheetahs but we even see them in the human genome and most other species.
BUT...
If the flood actually happened we would see a bottleneck in EVERY species of animal living on the land and EVERY bird and EVERY one of the bottlenecks show up in the SAME historical time period.
Talk about a big RED flag.
That bottleneck signature would be something every geneticists in the world would see. It would be like a neon sign, Broadway at midnight on New Years Eve. It would be something even a blind geneticist could see.
So it seems to me to be a very simple test that will support or refute the Flood.
If that genetic marker is there in EVERY species living on land or bird of the air, then there is support for the flood. It does not prove the flood happened but it would be very strong support.
If on the other hand that genetic marker is NOT there, then the Flood is refuted.
That genetic marker is NOT there.
The Biblical Flood has been refuted.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by goldrush, posted 02-16-2011 12:23 PM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by goldrush, posted 02-18-2011 7:05 PM jar has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 190 (604993)
02-16-2011 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Taq
02-16-2011 11:15 AM


Re: Illogical Dreamers
Taq writes:
Of all of the animal species, none have begun to advance to the level of brain capabilities as humans. The social, cultural, mechanical, industrial and scientific capabilities of humans is unique; immensely greater than that of any of the other species. All other species think and do in a simple and limited framework of capabilities.
Now please show the logic that leads us to the conclusion that this intelligence was produced by a supernatural deity.
What you're requiring is to show the logic that something immensely more complex than the most advanced computers could have evolved naturally over millions of years as you are alleging. You're the illogical dreamers.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Taq, posted 02-16-2011 11:15 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Taq, posted 02-16-2011 3:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 96 of 190 (604998)
02-16-2011 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by goldrush
02-16-2011 11:19 AM


Argument from Incredulity
Also you keep arguing that I am arguing from incredulity, yet you never show how.
Your arguments are pretty textbook. Let's start with the definition of this fallacy, though:
quote:
Wikipedia on Argument from Incredulity:
Arguments from incredulity take the form:
  1. P is too incredible (or I cannot imagine how P could possibly be true); therefore P must be false.
  2. It is obvious that P (or I cannot imagine how P could possibly be false) therefore P must be true.
These arguments are similar to arguments from ignorance in that they too ignore and do not properly eliminate the possibility that something can be both incredible and still be true, or appear to be obvious and yet still be false.
Now, let's look at some of your arguments that you believe support the existence of the Creator:
quote:
goldrush in Message 1:
Obviously, God gave the first man language, spoke to him, and instructed him.
& Message 1 in Thoughts on the Creator Conclusion:
Now consider the alternative to a reasoning Creator: the ability to reason evolving from the inability to reason. Is it logical to make the leap from unreasoning (inanimate and unconscious) to reasoning (animate and conscious) through evolution? No it is not. It is not logical to conclude that reasoning ability had to have evolved from ANY force lacking the ability to reason and think.
Do you see the similarities? Do you see how these arguments are formally identical to the examples given in the Wiki article?
If you do, then that's great! We're off to a good start. If not, then let me know what you think is different and we can go from there.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by goldrush, posted 02-16-2011 11:19 AM goldrush has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by goldrush, posted 02-18-2011 7:11 PM Jon has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 97 of 190 (605016)
02-16-2011 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by goldrush
02-16-2011 11:24 AM


goldrush writes:
No, this is an addition/clarification to a previous post where I stated that I believe our decision to reject or accept a Creator is not purely intellectual (or scientific).
Goldrush, what you are doing is saying "I believe x,y, and z" but you are giving no rationale for why you believe x, y, and z and you seem amazed that people could think this is bad logic.
This is a science part of the forum. Religious beliefs don't count (they are as you correctly point out, not scientific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by goldrush, posted 02-16-2011 11:24 AM goldrush has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 98 of 190 (605029)
02-16-2011 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Buzsaw
02-16-2011 1:43 PM


Re: Illogical Dreamers
What you're requiring is to show the logic that something immensely more complex than the most advanced computers could have evolved naturally over millions of years as you are alleging. You're the illogical dreamers.
Incredulity is not a logical argument.
Again, you claimed that it is logical that a supernatural deity created our intelligence. Please spell out the logic. So far the only logic you have spelled out is an argument based your incredulity which is an illogical argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Buzsaw, posted 02-16-2011 1:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 99 of 190 (605030)
02-16-2011 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by goldrush
02-16-2011 12:23 PM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
Really the testimony of this common legend should behoove one to reconsider the falsifying "physical" evidence.
No, it shouldn't. Evidence always trumps stories.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by goldrush, posted 02-16-2011 12:23 PM goldrush has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 02-16-2011 8:09 PM Taq has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 190 (605073)
02-16-2011 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Taq
02-16-2011 3:16 PM


Lo And Behold The Legends
Taq writes:
Really the testimony of this common legend should behoove one to reconsider the falsifying "physical" evidence.
No, it shouldn't. Evidence always trumps stories.
The legend evidence is telling
LoL, Taq. You've learned nothing from the misgivings of the 19th skeptics who, one by one, have had to eat crow. One by one, the falsification attempts have failed to discredit the Biblical record. Like these agnostics and atheists, you're leaping far ahead of your knowledge.
One by one, the evidence mounts, substantiating the existence of so much, once thought to be mythical legend.
Bottom line: Goldrush is right. The similarities of cultural legends is, in fact, one of the corroborating supportive evidences, for the Biblical record.
quote:
Digging up proof............
.........myth after myth has proved to be true history. ........
......... there is an amazing amount of evidence showing how authentic the biblical account of Abraham is.....................
They said there no signs of such civilizations as the Bible implied,............
But the archaeological digging found the site ..................
......... all demonstrating the accuracy of the Bible. .........
The cities were there................
On the contrary, the evidence is now piled high, ................
The nineteenth-century critics were as wrong as they could possibly have been. But their cynical errors linger on. ................
........once again, the evidence of archeology has completely silenced all such criticism. ..........
The question is: do folk who go on repeating the anti-Bible jibes of the last century know.........
Today we can see for ourselves ................
The evidence mounts...........
When people speak of Hebrew myths, they are simply unaware of the great mass of irrefutable support for the Bible from such findings of archeology. ................
Critics now silent ........................
The emerging evidence has confirmed the Bible's places, events, people and dates!
The pendulum has swung,

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Taq, posted 02-16-2011 3:16 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by frako, posted 02-16-2011 8:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 102 by Coyote, posted 02-16-2011 8:27 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 103 by Theodoric, posted 02-16-2011 8:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 105 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-16-2011 9:27 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 113 by Taq, posted 02-17-2011 12:30 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 101 of 190 (605077)
02-16-2011 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
02-16-2011 8:09 PM


Re: Lo And Behold The Legends
Using your logic
Troy has been found this is clear evidence of the Cyclops Poseidon and all the Greek gods and everything else in the odyssey.
The places mentioned in the tales of Hercules have been found this is clear evidence that Hercules existed and was the sone of the God Zeus
Mount Peca exist this is clear evidence that the sloveinan king Matja is sleeping under it with his army until his beard is long enough to encircle his table 7 times.
Of course you will find evidence of SOME places and SOME people just not evidence of miracle floods and all the other gobely gook that does not adhere to reason and natural laws CAUSE ITS ONLY A MADE UP STORY.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 02-16-2011 8:09 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 102 of 190 (605079)
02-16-2011 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
02-16-2011 8:09 PM


Re: Lo And Behold The Legends and other nonsense
Nonsense.
Legends are a dime a dozen (a little more now due to inflation).
The issue was the global flood ca. 4,350 years ago.
--On one hand we have a lot of non-specific flood legends. There is no reason to believe that they all described the same flood at all! And lots of reasons to believe they don't. The descriptions vary and the times are non-specific.
--On the other hand we have hard evidence, the evidence of archaeology and the soils. We can see evidence of floods if they were there! Google "channeled scablands" and take a look at the post-glacial evidence for floods in the Pacific Northwest. Here is a good link:
http://www.uwsp.edu/...ticipants/dutch/vtrips/scablands0.htm
Evidence for a global flood 4,350 years ago would be a third the age and spread all over the world (including your back yard). If it was there it would be easy to find.
--On the gripping hand we have the evidence of genetics. That was explained to you in a post upthread (for at least the dozenth time).
And against this hard evidence that can be verified by anyone, even you if you dared to face it, you want us to accept myths!
Get a grip!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 02-16-2011 8:09 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Buzsaw, posted 02-16-2011 10:37 PM Coyote has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9202
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 103 of 190 (605080)
02-16-2011 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
02-16-2011 8:09 PM


Re: Lo And Behold The Legends
Damn looks like the Iliad and the Odyssey are true. The found Troy so that guarantees it is all true.
ABE
Oops just saw frako's reply. Sorry for jumping on the same thing.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 02-16-2011 8:09 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 104 of 190 (605082)
02-16-2011 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by goldrush
02-16-2011 12:12 PM


Re: Accurate knowledge?
The "no brainer" common evidence you cited is actually just bits and pieces of the major common theme and message of the flood legends I cited in my original post.
(1) Yes, but the "common theme and message" doesn't actually exist. The flood legends are as disparate as can be. The gods send the flood because of the wickedness of mankind, or simply because of overpopulation --- or even by accident. The flood is local or global. People survive by means of a boat or climbing up a high mountain or clinging to driftwood or by the intervention of a giant fish; or there are no survivors and the gods repopulate the world by magic.
What they have in common is that they are flood legends --- and that almost always the flood is attributed to supernatural beings, which is no surprise because primitive people attribute all meteorological events and all remarkable events to supernatural beings, and this was both.
The legends most similar to the Biblical one are all found in the same region, and there is a fairly obvious non-magical explanation for that.
(2) You have generally ignored the possibility of cultural transmission. In most cultures, the missionaries have turned up before the anthropologists. Many flood myths may have been seeded by missionaries, and this needs to be taken into account.
Does the widespread myth of Santa Claus show that he really exists, or just that it's an appealing myth which has spread easily?
(3) You have also not considered the possibility that these myths have sprung from common errors. What I mean is that people all over the world have been able to observe marine fossils in mountains. What could be more natural than to assume that at some time the water level was higher rather than the rock constituting the mountains being lower? (To witness a small flood is after all commonplace, whereas most people will not observe geological uplift, which is less dramatic.)
(4) You do not say how your reasoning applies to other legends found all over the world. Stories of talking animals are very widespread; so are stories of fairy-like beings.
Or take the legend of stealing fire from the gods. Some common (though not quite universal) features:
* What is stolen is fire itself, not the secret of making it. This is odd when you think about it, because the cultures having such legends did in fact have the secret of making fire. (I know of no exceptions to this.)
* The thief steals fire out of compassion for humanity, because they need fire to keep warm and cook.
* The thief steals without fee or reward; the gesture is purely altruistic.
* The thief is male (I know of one exception, in Hawai'i).
* The thief usually is not himself human, and often would not qualify as a god either, but is a third class of being.
* The thief is not subsequently caught and punished by the gods (I know of one exception, the Greek legend of Prometheus.)
* The gods do not, of course, take fire back from humanity, explaining why we still have it.
* The thief is sometimes marked by the fire; if this is the case, the marking is hereditary.
I have found examples of the myth from India, South Africa, North America, Central America, Europe, Australia, and various Pacific islands. So, did it actually happen?
Also the flood date recorded in the Bible coincides with celebrations of the dead held in many lands. The date of the biblical flood and the massive loss of life resulting from it connects it with these celebrations and the common flood legends that share its theme.
Where are you getting this from? The only thing I can find supporting this is this three-paragraph wikipedia article, which, instead of giving references to the various alleged festivals of the dead, has a single reference to a book by Charles Piazzi Smith, the well-known pyramidologist, numerologist, and all-round crackpot.
Halloween, to be sure, is a day of the dead, but as I have pointed out, the Church that instituted it never said anything about it commemorating the Flood.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by goldrush, posted 02-16-2011 12:12 PM goldrush has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by RCS, posted 02-28-2011 6:14 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 105 of 190 (605083)
02-16-2011 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
02-16-2011 8:09 PM


Re: Lo And Behold The Legends
LoL, Taq. You've learned nothing from the misgivings of the 19th skeptics who, one by one, have had to eat crow.
I think you'll find that the nineteenth century skeptics are dead. What we have now are twenty-first century skeptics who are still laughing at you for believing something as unhistorical as the flood. Do you suppose that their numbers have decreased since the nineteenth century?
Meanwhile you have apparently learned nothing from the rise of local-floodism and old-earthism amongst Christians defeated by the weight of the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 02-16-2011 8:09 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Buzsaw, posted 02-16-2011 11:10 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024