|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 4464 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member (Idle past 326 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 responds to me:
quote: But only because of its religious patina which necessarily excludes it from this particular museum. I've asked you this twice, now, so it would be awfully nice if you answered it: What other significance does it have?
quote: And that other significance is? You'd think after being asked directly twice for what that signficance is and your direct statement that it has another one, you'd be only too keen to explain what it is. So have at it. What other significance does it have?
quote: So you agree that it is purely a religious symbol and has no other significance. So, I'm confused. You keep saying it has some other significance but the only one you bring forward is its religious patina which automatically excludes it from the museum. You need to have some other, non-religious purpose in order to get past the Lemon test. So what other significance does it have?
quote: And that doesn't tip you off? It's a purely religious item and thus has no place here. It would do so much more good at the church where it can be accessed by those who find its religious implications to be important.
quote: Nope. They all agree it's ludicrous to include it in the museum. They all agree that it serves no secular purpose and that it should remain at the church where it can be of more benefit to those who find it to be theologically important. In a secular museum, it will be stripped of it its iconography and turned into a piece of debris which insults the history of the item.
quote: Huh? This isn't a question of "sitting well." This has to do with respect for the item. As one of my curator buddies put it, it'd be like draining the well at Lourdes so that some upstart French water company could sell it as a competitor to Evian (which is "naive" spelled backwards). The item has signficiance in the theology of a certain group and thus, to maintain that significance, it should be maintained in its sectarian setting. Anywhere else is inappropriate and disrespects the item.
quote: Huh? That makes no sense. Why on earth would anybody protest someone exercising their religion over a piece of rubble? How rude.
quote: But you just said that it wasn't just a religious symbol. So for the umpteenth time: What other significance does it have?
quote: As what? What other significance does it have apart from its religious symbology?
quote: It is simplicity itself to deny something that doesn't exist. So help us out: What is this other significance that it has? And why is that signficance so important that it overwhelms its religious symbology such that it must be taken away from that setting and placed in a setting where that theology can never be utilized again?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8710 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote:But only because of its religious patina which necessarily excludes it from this particular museum. Any artifact of any significance from the site is subject to inclusion in the museum. That is what museums do. That is their reason for existence. Personal religious revulsion not withstanding.
I've asked you this twice, now, so it would be awfully nice if you answered it: What other significance does it have? You had your answer, if you had cared to actually read and comprehend. From my Message 177:
quote: This is the religious significance that seems to bother you so.
quote: This is the "other" significance of the object that gives it the curatorial value for the museum. It was quite plain in my message. I should not have had to spoon feed this to someone of your intellect. You're no dummy, Rrhain. I think you did not want to see this "other" significance the Cross holds. You may be blinded by the "religious patina" you so abhor. It is a religious symbol. It has significance as a religious symbol. Its other significance is that it was on the site. It was used as a religious symbol on the recovery site. It was the only such symbol on the site. That is its unique history that ties it irrevocably to the event the museum is charged with remembering. That is the purpose of the museum. That is the job of the curator. To acquire, preserve and display those unique artifacts with a direct history to the preserved event. The WTC Cross more than fits that requirement for the WTC Museum. Now that the Museum has the artifact, if the curators are not incompetents like the ones you have been talking to, it will remain.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member (Idle past 326 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined:
|
AZPaul3 responds to me:
quote: But this one has no significance. What other significance does it have? How many times do I have to ask you that same question before you answer?
quote: What? What is it? Other than a small group of people thought it was religiously significant, what makes this piece of rubble deserving of being in the museum? More so than any other? Be specific. And if all you can come up with are religious reasons (and that has been the only reason you have come up with so far), then it doesn't belong here. It belongs in a church. So for at least the eighth time: What other significance does it have?
quote: Then it doesn't belong. It really is that simple. If its only significance is religious, then it doesn't belong. If it has some other significance, it might belong. What other significance does it have?
quote: There are plenty of other pieces of rubble. Why should this one be chosen? What other significance does it have?
quote: Indeed, but it must be within the scope of the project. This piece has no signficance other than what a tiny number of people painted upon it. Thus, it is of no concern. What other significance does it have?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8710 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
|
What other significance does it have? How many times do I have to ask you that same question before you answer? Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
what makes this piece of rubble deserving of being in the museum? More so than any other? Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
So for at least the eighth time: What other significance does it have? Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
If it has some other significance, it might belong. What other significance does it have? Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
There are plenty of other pieces of rubble. Why should this one be chosen? What other significance does it have? Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
What other significance does it have? Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Trae Member (Idle past 4625 days) Posts: 442 From: Fremont, CA, USA Joined:
|
Indeed. And further, since the cross is being included for a secular reason, then they wouldn't even have to allow other religious symbols. The American Atheists have offered to make a piece for the museum, but why should their's be included? What significance does it have that would make it museum worthy? What secular reason? If Kali inspires a DMV worker to do a better job, is that a secular reason? Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
CS writes: The religious symbolism is irrelevant. Irrelevant to what? It's role in the events of 9/11.....? Or it's role in the museum? (in which case it can be displayed sideways, upside down or in any non-crucifix-like orientation) without losing any of it's "secular purpose")
CS writes: Go back and read my posts again. I have. Answer me one question honestly and non-evasively. If this item were displayed in the museum upside down would those who want it included in the museum be happy with that display choice? If not why not?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
cavediver Member (Idle past 3962 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
If this item were displayed in the museum upside down would those who want it included in the museum be happy with that display choice? If not why not? Those working at Ground Zero happened upon a curious bending and fusing of a girder. It was bent around into a heart shape. In the midst of all the carnage, here was a symbol that love still survived no matter how much hatred was unleashed upon it. That heart-shaped girder was placed in a prominant position and gave hope and inspiration to the workers each day. Much later, a museum dedicated to the 9/11 attack made an exhibit of the girder. But for some reason they placed it upside down. Complaints were made. Were those complaints justified?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
cavediver Member (Idle past 3962 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Sorry, double post.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Yes those complaints are justified.
A heart is a symbol of love and hope and if displayed upside down it loses that meaning. In exactly the same way that a Christian cross lose it's religious symbolism if displayed upside down......
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
CS writes:
Irrelevant to what? The religious symbolism is irrelevant. My position. And apparently, AZPaul3's as well::
quote: .
If this item were displayed in the museum upside down would those who want it included in the museum be happy with that display choice? If not why not? "Those who want it included" is not some homogeneous group that could be blanketly described as being happy or unhappy with that display choice. I already answered that the cross displayed upside-down might be seen as disrespectful to the rescuer who were there that got the help from it. But you still haven't answered my question: Why modify the cross so that it is upside-down? I see no reason to do so.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
What secular reason? Please catch up on what's already been posted:
Message 59:
quote: Message 127:
quote: Message 144:
quote: .
If Kali inspires a DMV worker to do a better job, is that a secular reason? In a museum that was exhibiting things that have helped DMV workers, showing how Kali did could be done in a secular way, yes.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member (Idle past 326 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 pretends to respond to me:
quote: I'll take the fourth option: You didn't actually answer, just like you didn't here, so i guess I get to ask again: What other significance does it have? You've acknowledged its religious significance but if that is all it has, then it doesn't belong. Therefore, it must have some other significance that isn't rooted in its religious significance does it have? As examples, the rubble that was hit by the first plane or the second plane, the cornerstone of the building, the first girder raised when the building was erected, all of those would be signifies that would make it appropriate to be included. What significance does it have that isn't part and parcel of its religious significance? What secular purpose does it serve?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8710 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
What other significance does it have? Did you not comprehend my answer to this question in Message 177 and again in Message 182 or did you not like the answer so now are being deliberately obtuse?
What significance does it have that isn't part and parcel of its religious significance? Historical. Just like I said in Message 177 and again in Message 182. Stop playing dumb.
What secular purpose does it serve? History. Just like I said in Message 177 and again in Message 182. Stop playing dumb.
You've acknowledged its religious significance but if that is all it has, then it doesn't belong. Why not? Do you think the Cross was at some site other than ground zero? Do you deny that the object's significance and history was unique to ground zero? Do you deny that preserving history has a secular purpose? Do you deny that preserving the history of ground zero has a secular purpose? Do you deny that the museum's purpose is to acquire, protect and display the unique historical artifacts from ground zero? Do you think just because the Cross had a "religious significance" at ground zero that its unique place in the history of the event, and thus the artifact's curatorial value, is somehow lost? Do you think that "religion" taints and poisons all artifacts into historical insignificance? Edited by AZPaul3, : clarity Edited by AZPaul3, : I wanted to.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
cavediver Member (Idle past 3962 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
A heart is a symbol of love and hope and if displayed upside down it loses that meaning. In exactly the same way that a Christian cross lose it's religious symbolism if displayed upside down... Ok, fair enough. Should the "heart" be included in the museum? Should the "cross" be included in the museum?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member (Idle past 326 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
AZPaul3 avoids the question yet again:
quote: I'll take the fourth option: None of that was an answer so I get to ask again. What other significance does it have? You've acknowledged its religious significance but if that is all it has, then it doesn't belong. What other significance that isn't rooted in its religious significance does it have? As examples, the rubble that was hit by the first plane or the second plane, the cornerstone of the building, the first girder raised when the building was erected, all of those would be signifiers that would make it appropriate to be included. What significance does it have that isn't part and parcel of its religious significance? What secular purpose does it serve?
quote:quote: The First Amendment. Since the only significance of this object is sectarian, it has no place in a public museum. It should remain in its sectarian environment where it can do the most good.
quote: Irrelevant. That it was at Ground Zero does not make it different from any other piece of rubble. If the point of the presentation is to display a piece of rubble, why is this one so important? Why not avoid even the appearance of impropriety and display another piece that isn't so coated with religious purpose?
quote: Yes. It is not unique in the slightest. There are literally buildings' worth of rubble that could be displayed if the only purpose of the exhibit is to show a piece of the wreckage. What makes this one so important?
quote: Not at all. But what's so special about this piece? If the only purpose is to display a piece of rubble, why is this one so important? Why not show another piece that doesn't have any religious attachment to it? What makes this one so important?
quote: Not at all. But this piece has no historical significance. What makes this piece so important?
quote: Not at all. But this piece has no historical significance. What makes this piece so important?
quote: No. I think this piece has no historical significance whatsoever and that its only significance is the religious importance a handful of people attached to it. Therefore, it is of no worth to the museum than any other piece of debris. What makes this piece so important?
quote: Not at all. I think a piece whose only signficiance is religious has no place in a public museum but should instead be displayed in a sectarian museum where it can do the most good. Hint: You will note that nobody is saying the piece should be hidden, destroyed, or in any way kept out of the public eye. But a public museum is for historical pieces, not religious ones, and this piece's only significance is religious in nature. Unless you could be so kind as to indicate what other significance it has. What other significance does it have? You've acknowledged its religious significance but if that is all it has, then it doesn't belong. What other significance that isn't rooted in its religious significance does it have? As examples, the rubble that was hit by the first plane or the second plane, the cornerstone of the building, the first girder raised when the building was erected, all of those would be signifiers that would make it appropriate to be included. What significance does it have that isn't part and parcel of its religious significance? What secular purpose does it serve?Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2025