Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit

Well you have gone completely off-topic, largely off-point and utterly into preach mode now.

See, that's where I have a problem - the cross had significance to (allegedly) a large number of those clearing the site, and so that is all that maaters. I don't give a shit that the significance was religious, and I have zero interest in anyone having a problem with it, whether atheist or other-religion. It's not there for them, it's there for those that found it significant.If a bunch of Moslem workers found a crescent shaped girder that spoke to them of Allah's grace, and that He obviously frowned on the actions of OBL and co., then that could be included as well. And I would have just as little time for the enevitable shit-storm that would ensue

Then the ones who found it significant, and likeminded individuals, should be the ones who should fund it. Instead, the funding is from the government, which means people who oppose it still have to pay for it.

There is much art in which I personally have little interest, and some that positively annoys the fuck out of me, but my taxes still pay for the national museums to buy the stuff. I guess it's called being part of "society".

Yes, did you read what I wrote in my reply in Message 151? Because I do think it has a secular purpose. Did you see my Message 191? I already have. These two positions are compatible. I don't know. "Those who want it included" is not some homogeneous group that could be blanketly described as being happy or unhappy with that display choice. I already answered that the cross displayed upside-down might be seen as disrespectful to the rescuers who were there that got the help from it.

cavdiver writes:

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It's not there for them, it's there for those that found it significant.

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Which means it belongs in a church, not a museum. Stuff in a museum belongs because it is significant to all since history is for everyone, not just the faithful.

Catholic Scientist writes:

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Because I do think it has a secular purpose. Did you see my Message 191?

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That isn't a secular purpose. Your own source indicates that it's a sectarian purpose: That's not a secular purpose. That is solely a religious purpose.Ergo, it doesn't belong in a museum. It belongs in a church.

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I already answered that the cross displayed upside-down might be seen as disrespectful to the rescuers who were there that got the help from it.

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Which is proof positive that it has no secular purpose, only sectarian.

cavediver responds to me:

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Its historical significance rests on how big a "handful" we have

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Incorrect.The number of people venerating an object doesn't turn a religious object into something secular.What secular purpose does this particular object serve? Note, it cannot be traced back to "people thought it was a Christian sign." That's a sectarian purpose. We need a secular one.Be specific.The closest that has been put forward is that it was used as a meeting point. As an obvious object in the debris, that makes sense. But nothing happened at this meeting point other than meetings. There is no historical significance to this item unless you're holding back.What secular purpose does this particular object serve?

IamJoseph writes:

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Don't know what you mean by golden rule.

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(*blink!*)You did not just say that, did you?

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Mine is:

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WHAT IS HATEFUL TO YOU - DO NOT UNTO OTHERS.

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That's not the Golden Rule. That's the Silver Rule. And no, I'm not making that up.The Golden Rule is, as everyone knows, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."The Silver Rule is, "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you."Carl Sagan proposed two more:Brazen Rule: Do unto others as they do unto you.Iron Rule: Do unto others as you like before they do it to you.

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Christian America flaunted Europe with the Constitution, perhaps one of the greatest documents humanity possesses.

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So why is it whenever we invade another country to establish a democracy, we never establish an American-style government? It's always a European-style government? We've never helped a country establish a Congress...always a Parliament.

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Europe did great damage to the symbol of the cross.

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Which is proof that this piece of debris doesn't belong in a museum but rather a church.

IamJoseph writes:

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Common yes, but this is because Christianity has the biggest following, not because its golden rule is better than the one I gave you.

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Incorrect.The Golden Rule is not Christian. Many cultures have come up with it. Babylon, Egypt, Greece, China, they all came up with it.What you put forward is the Silver Rule. It, too, is not Christian in origin and has been discovered in many cultures.

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Yes, but Europe was overtly wrong, unlike America.

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And yet Europe is doing so much better than America.

cavediver writes:

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Otherwise religion seems to be being treated as some special case, which is precisely what I thought we would want to avoid!

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Then so much for the First Amendment. I realize you're British, but we have a specific rule here in the US that directly singles out religion as a special case.The government doesn't get to regulate religion and religion doesn't get to meddle in the government.

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The cross has significance to the workers on the site

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Incorrect. It had significance to only some workers on the site. And that significance was completely religious in nature.Thus, it doesn't belong in a museum. It belongs in a church.

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You may ask what type of significance, and the answer is obviously "religious significance". But it is the *significance* that makes it possibly suitable for inclusion.

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Incorrect. The exact opposite conclusion is called for: Its only significance is religious and thus, it doesn't belong in a museum. It belongs in a church.

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Personally, I don't like singling out religion as something that requires special treatment.

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Then so much for the First Amendment.

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That's not the Golden Rule. That's the Silver Rule. And no, I'm not making that up.

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The Golden Rule is, as everyone knows, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

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Put your thinking cap on. Isabela of Spain killed off 1000's of innocent folk with that same doctrine, boasting 'BETTER TO DESTROY THEIR BODIES AND SAVE THEIR SOULS".Does anyone remember an empire called Spain anymore! Her evil deeds made Europe irrelevent, ushering the founding of America - by a hidden Jew.Penicilin saves. Penicilin kills. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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And yet Europe is doing so much better than America.

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Don't you mean Eurostan?

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the cross had significance

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This was a pre-christian Jewish symbol, emerging after Rome invaded Judea around 150 BCE. It was meant to signify an omen of death [cricifixion; a Roman doctrine]. It became a Christian symbol after 400 CE.

I get that. What has that to do with what is included in a national museum? Are all religious artefacts to be excluded?On a publicly-funded archaeological dig, are religious sites to be ignored?On a publicly-funded sociological study, are religious beliefs to be ignored? Let us, for sake of argument, say that it had significance to *all* the workers on the site. Do you still maintain that it does not belong in a museum?Let us, for sake of argument, say that my heart-shaped girder had significance to *all* the workers on the site. Could that belong in a museum?Let us, for sake of argument, say that my OSL-shaped girder had significance to *all* the workers on the site. Could that belong in a museum?