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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
subbie writes:
If you can point out where I've done any such thing.... Perhaps if you had not begun by apparently assuming it's done on a lark, or learned a bit more about it before condemning the practice, you might not have had the same reception. It took more than fifty posts for anybody to post that infomation (and still no documentation). You guys should step up your game instead of falling over each other trying to be liberaler than thou. Edited by ringo, : Took subbie's words out of my mouth (fixed quote attribution).
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
liberaler than thou I'd be most curious to hear what definition of "liberal" you are using that would apply to my posts in this thread.Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
subbie writes:
"Liberaler than thou" refers to some people's eagerness to jump on the We Love Genderqueer bandwagon without bothering to read the the posts they're responding to or think through their position. I'd be most curious to hear what definition of "liberal" you are using that would apply to my posts in this thread. Now you. Show me where I condemned anything.
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
ringo writes: Corrective surgery would be something like fixing a malfunctioning heart valve. "Gender reassignment" is fakery. It doesn't make you a different gender; it just makes you look like a different gender. You are mistaken. I have no particular love for homosexuals, transsexuals or "genderqueer," as you so quaintly refer to them. They make me uncomfortable in the extreme and I generally try to avoid them. But I also happen to think they have the same right to the pursuit of whatever makes them happy as anyone else.Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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There is a huge difference between a girl getting bigger tits and going through a sex change operation. By degree, I suppose, but you leave unstated what the exact difference actually is. So I, you know, don't believe you.
Eledtive surgery? I thought it was corrective surgery? If it's justifiable as an elective, then it's certainly justifiable as a corrective. And if it is corrective, as you're now willing to admit, then there's absolutely no reason to deny someone the surgery.
Soon all black girls will be blonde girls and all short guys tall. Maybe. It's really easy for normal people to tell others that you have to play the hand you're dealt. While you're at it, you should throw away your contact lenses and celebrate the natural diversity in visual acuity, don't you think? Who cares if it means you can't drive or read?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
When somebody makes a choice that is regarded as harmful - e.g. suicide - most societies respond with counselling rather than laissez-faire. And yet the phony assertion that a choice is somehow "harmful" - without any argument put forward in support - is frequently used to deny people choice. There's a greater burden of evidence for arguing that someone's choice is "harmful" than just mere assertion of harm.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
And yet the phony assertion that a choice is somehow "harmful" - without any argument put forward in support - is frequently used to deny people choice. People who care about you tend to error on the side of caution.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
By degree, I suppose, but you leave unstated what the exact difference actually is. So I, you know, don't believe you. Yeah, I left it unstated because I don't believe you are a fucking idiot and can see the difference. If this is the rabbit hole you need to go to in this debate, then we can end this here. It has been zero fun lately to debate here, mostly because of disingenuous shit like this. Plus it's turned into Facebook, how utterly annoying. It was more fun being dark Oni...
If it's justifiable as an elective, then it's certainly justifiable as a corrective. That doesn't make any sense.
And if it is corrective, as you're now willing to admit Que? I was merely asking which YOU wanted to use, since it seems interchangable for you. Corrective surgery is Lasik, correcting vision. A sex change is correcting nothing. At all.
Maybe. It's really easy for normal people to tell others that you have to play the hand you're dealt. Define normal...? I don't know who is normal and who is not normal. Between the black girl and the blonde in my example, which is normal and which one is playing the hand they were dealt? Same goes for a short person and a tall person. Which is normal? You've lost me in your ridiculousness, so if you could please try to make some sense.
While you're at it, you should throw away your contact lenses and celebrate the natural diversity in visual acuity, don't you think? Who cares if it means you can't drive or read? Oh lets see, eyes are bad, need correcting... yep, that's corrective surgery. Nothing physically wrong with those having a sex change. It is therefore NOT corrective. They elect to do it, sure. But they are not correcting anything unless you mean to tell me nature fucked up making them the wrong sex? - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Facts I could dig up on the matter. Doesn't favor well with those supporting sex changes, mostly because it doesn't improve the lives of those under-going the surgery. I'll provide quotes, you can read the whole thing if you like.
Sex changes are not effective, say researchers quote: Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden quote: This one seems unsure as to the long term effects and makes reference to the procedure possibly being abandoned eventual except for very very few you would qualify. You can read the rest here: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Historical, Bioethical, and Theoretical Issues quote: So can any of the supporters provide evidence for the long term effects being good? - Oni
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Psychiatry. The same way we determine whether depression is a mental disorder or just a state of being. The same way that we have determined that being gay is actually not a mental disorder, even though a lot of people don't "get it." There have been many studies on transgenderism. I'll see if I can dig up some of the ones I've seen in the past.
Can they distiguish between a person who has BIID and one that is transgender?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I had never heard of BIID before. From your link:
CS Link writes: Symptoms of BIID sufferers are often keenly felt. The sufferer feels incomplete with four limbs, but is confident amputation will fix this. The sufferer knows exactly what part of which limb should be amputated to relieve the suffering. The sufferer has intense feelings of envy toward amputees. They often pretend, both in private and in public, that they are an amputee. Link writes: The idea of medically amputating a BIID sufferer's undesired limb is highly controversial. Some support amputation for patients with BIID that cannot be treated through psychotherapy or medication. Others emphasize the irreversibility of amputation, and promote the study of phantom limbs to treat the patient from a psychological perspective instead. I have to admit BIID does seem like something that is comparable to sexual re-assignment in the context of this debate. I suppose if it genuinely does solve a problem for the individual in question then I am not against either removing limbs or penises in principle. But if the issue is a mental one then psychological treatment seems preferable just because the physical route is so drastic and one-way. I wonder what the evidence says about whether or not the lives of people who do have such surgery improve or not. I suppose that should ultimately be the determining factor. What is most liley to work for the person in question.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Here is part of what you yourself quoted:
link writes: While sex reassignment surgery has definite medical-surgical and psychological limitations, there is insufficient evidence to warrant its termination. In deed, there is evidence suggesting that some gender dysphoric patients benefit primarily from sex reassignment surgery (reference 12 and an unpublished study by S. Satterfield). The problem is how to identify these patients. So the facts you posted seem to support transgender surgery in some cases and purely psychological treatments for others. So the question becomes one of identifying which patients are best treated by which method (rather than simply opposing transgender surgery for anyone). Right? Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
First, I quoted three studies, two of which show the lack of success. The third, the one you chose to quote, seemed almost unsure.
From the same one you quoted from:
quote: Here it points to the abandonment of sex reassignment surgery (except for a very few select patients.)
So the facts you posted seem to support transgender surgery in some cases and purely psychological treatments for others. Et tu, Straggler? I posted three quotes on the matter, two of which showed no support for it, saying the patients were in fact worse. One claimed MAYBE it will be ok for a few patients. But also went on to say: As clinicians learn new ways to diagnose and treat transsexualism, either sex reassignment surgery will be abandoned as a routine treatment modality... And from that you are saying the facts claim support of sex reassignment surgery? Really? At best it's saying maybe it will be something to do, but also, it may be abandoned all together. But the other two studies showed zero support for it. So no, the question is NOT who gets it. The question STILL remains is it the right thing to do? Two studies say absolutely NOT. One says maybe for some very few select people, but perhaps not at all. Can someone post some facts that show a clear support for it? - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given. Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
onifre writes:
Bye. If this is the rabbit hole you need to go to in this debate, then we can end this here. It has been zero fun lately to debate here, mostly because of disingenuous shit like this. Plus it's turned into Facebook, how utterly annoying.Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Bye. - Oni
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