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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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crashfrog writes:
That attitude is the problem. People are taught that they should act "like a man" or "like a woman". How you act is how you act and what you are is what you are - and ne'er the twain should have to meet.
Acting like a man is being a man.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
hese certainly aren't meant to be a slam dunk response or anything, but the fact that I have to go to the fifth study I found before getting a result that didn't indicate positive outcomes for sex reassignment, suggests that you're looking in the wrong place if you're finding it so hard to find any kind of support. Thanks for posting the links. I was being aggressive because I wanted people to post the links rather than just say it exists. Like you say, they are not a slam dunk. ANd would you also agree that the evidence is conflicting? Because of that I remain skeptical as to it's benefits. We definitely need to understand the brain a lot more before doctors start making such drastic surgical procedures. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I think it is valid to point out that if things can't actually get any worse for someone (e.g. they are going to commit suicide because they cannot live in the body they have) then doing something that might work doesn't seem unreasonable. If they are suicidal I would have to say they need mental help. It's not easy like putting an eye patch on someone and calling them a pirate. You're talking about a drastic surgery that involves much more than throwing on a costume. It also feels like you are patronizing them.
In such a case isn't it worth a shot? If you want to let mentally ill people walk around wearing pirate suits and call that a solution, fine. But what I would feel is worth a shot is long-term mental evaluation, not surgery. - Oni
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined:
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That attitude is the problem. People are taught that they should act "like a man" or "like a woman". How you act is how you act and what you are is what you are - and ne'er the twain should have to meet. quote: Read more at Pastor Sean Harris: Parents Should Punch Gay Acting Children - Inquisitr This type of thinking sickens me. here is a little from the transcript....
quote: From here. Some people believe that GLBT people can be fixed, even if you have to use a Jesus stick to beat it out of them. Personally I don't think they are broken, but our society and the attitudes of some must make life confusing if not unbearable for many."No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Just because one extreme is bad doesn't mean the other extreme is good.
If you don't feed your kids, they will starve, therefore we should force feed them 24/7. Stuff food down their throats if we have to. If you don't let your kids drink water, they will be thirsty. Therefore, let's throw them in water and give them all the water they need. Obviously, my examples above are ridiculous. And so is what you're implicating. Just because the christians hate lgbt people doesn't mean giving surgery to anyone who says they're transgendered is a good thing. I'm sick and tired of seeing people using one extreme to support another. We live in the real world. And the real world exists somewhere in between the extremes.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6
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Obviously, my examples above are ridiculous. And so is what you're implicating. Just because the christians hate lgbt people doesn't mean giving surgery to anyone who says they're transgendered is a good thing. I'm sick and tired of seeing people using one extreme to support another. We live in the real world. And the real world exists somewhere in between the extremes. Included in your absolutely correct denouncement of using outlier-extremes to craft strawman arguments should be your own suggestion that gender reassignment surgery is given to "anyone who says they're transgendered." That's absolutely not the case, and it's important to accurately represent the process given how much ignorance on the subject already exists. Gender reassignment surgery is only performed after a very long series of prerequisite steps have been completed to ensure that the patient is actually experiencing gender identity dysphoria and not some completely different mental condition, and also to ensure that the patient is actually capable of and fully intends to live as the desired gender, full-time. One does not simply contract a surgeon to perform the procedure. It cannot be done on a whim. So you're right :
quote: But nobody is actually suggesting that gender reassignment surgery should be performed on just anyone who walks in to the surgeon's office and says they're "transgendered." The reality, of course, is something apart from that "extreme."The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Rahvin writes:
Then why bring in that example of beating/breaking bones of kids? Included in your absolutely correct denouncement of using outlier-extremes to craft strawman arguments should be your own suggestion that gender reassignment surgery is given to "anyone who says they're transgendered." That's absolutely not the case, and it's important to accurately represent the process given how much ignorance on the subject already exists. Gender reassignment surgery is only performed after a very long series of prerequisite steps have been completed to ensure that the patient is actually experiencing gender identity dysphoria and not some completely different mental condition, and also to ensure that the patient is actually capable of and fully intends to live as the desired gender, full-time. One does not simply contract a surgeon to perform the procedure. It cannot be done on a whim.
I'm fully aware of the long series of prereqs for gender reassignment procedure. What I've been saying is that from my personal experience with people who have undergone surgery is that they're not all there up there. No, I'm not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist. That's why I've befriended these people and have interacted with them on many many occasions. After knowing them for years, I still think they're not all there up there. Did they fall through the cracks or do they need to look again at the prereqs?
But nobody is actually suggesting that gender reassignment surgery should be performed on just anyone who walks in to the surgeon's office and says they're "transgendered."
Then don't bring in that example of beating and breaking bones. The reality, of course, is something apart from that "extreme."
Look, I understand what transgender people go through, or at least I really really try to. They're not just outcasts to the "normal" society, they're outcasts to the mainstream lgbt culture, which is mostly gay men and women anyway. And I used to fully support gender reassignment surgery to "fix" some of their problems (after extensive evaluations by professionals, of course). But after years of interacting and knowing these people on a personal level, I've begun to question whether they were even fully aware of what they wanted. Edit. On a personal level, I know half a dozen transgendered people. Beyond the personal level, I know more than that. M (the person I described several posts ago) seems to be the only fully sane person out of the lot. This is why I question giving gender reassignment procedure to so many is a good idea. Because as far as I know it's permanent. Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
doesn't mean giving surgery to anyone who says they're transgendered is a good thing. Letting a woman get a set of giant breast implants might not be a good idea either, many later go back for a smaller size. ( Pam Anderson has went up and down several times if I remember right) I would no more stop a woman who knows the risk and consequences from attempting to improve themselves than I would a transgender person. If surgery is what these people feel is the right thing to do then far as I know it is still a free country...sort of. I guess you are probably against parents getting cosmetic surgery for their children under 18? I am, unless it is special circumstances...cleft pallet, car wreck ect, but nose jobs and such no."No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
fearandloathing writes:
Well, nobody is really saying we stop them from doing what they want. Letting a woman get a set of giant breast implants might not be a good idea either, many later go back for a smaller size. ( Pam Anderson has went up and down several times if I remember right) I would no more stop a woman who knows the risk and consequences from attempting to improve themselves than I would a transgender person. If surgery is what these people feel is the right thing to do then far as I know it is still a free country...sort of. But I really have to focus in on the reded words. My wife and I have been somewhat at odds with this gay couple we'd known for years. Here's what happened. We attended a wedding and last year. And to save money, we offered S (a married lesbian woman) to stay in our hotel room. Of course I was the only one out of the three that could sleep on the floor without dying, I slept on the floor while the wife and S slept on the bed. The following day on our way home the wife told me S (while drunk) tried to make out with her. I didn't really care. Well, S had to tell K (her partner) what happened and K blamed it on my wife. Lots of womanly drama. Stuff that I'll never understand. Anyway, last month they decided to call a truce and all 4 of us were going to meet at this place for lunch. A couple days before, my wife told me that her feelings told her to call off our friendship, get up, and walk right out. I adviced my wife to at least hear them out. At the lunch, the lesbian couple apologized and wanted us to start over. My wife, listening to this voice in her head, said exactly what she told me she was going to say and got up and left. Bored yet? The point is excuse me for not trusting people's feelings too much. I've known people who felt they had to kill themselves. I've known people who felt they needed to do some pretty darn stupid things. Just because a guy feels he's emperor of the world doesn't mean we have to make him emperor of the world.
I guess you are probably against parents getting cosmetic surgery for their children under 18? I am, unless it is special circumstances...cleft pallet, car wreck ect, but nose jobs and such no.
The real question is can you verbalize the reasons why you believe that? Or is it just a feeling that you have?
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
Taz writes: The real question is can you verbalize the reasons why you believe that? Or is it just a feeling that you have? Just a feeling, I could be wrong, doesn't matter anyway as it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. In all reality my post Message 124 was only meant to be an example of how some people still believe that GLBT people can be changed. I didn't intend to be for or against the surgery. I have next to no experience with transgenders (far as I know). I have a few gay friends and know a few lesbians as well, the only TG person I know is a bit off, has a bad temper and parties way too much for my taste. I do feel that many women get cosmetic surgery for the wrong reasons. Low self esteem is not going to be fixed by surgery alone. I also feel that some parents want to "fix" their kids, for their own reasons. "No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
fearandloathing writes:
Isn't this a lot of people's life story? My parents tried to push me to become a doctor. That didn't work out so well. I also feel that some parents want to "fix" their kids, for their own reasons. Anyway, I did a quick google search and found the following article. Sex changes are not effective, say researchers | Health | The Guardian I have some free time so I'll be doing some more searches for something more recent. But the point is this. The article reflects what I have experienced personally. The wife and I work closely with the lgbt community. And I used to support gender reassignment surgery after meeting all the prereqs and such. But after having known personally and interacted with some/many transgendered people who have gone through surgery as well as people who have decided not to undergo the surgery, I'd begun to question whether surgery was a valid solution for many of these cases. We can be all politically correct all we want all day long, but in the end I've noticed that they're not any happier after they've transitioned. Many are just not all there up there. No, I'm not trying to demonize anyone. I speak the truth according to how I see it. Edit. My current project is on working with this guy I know who have attempted suicide several times. He recently just came out of another clinic. Obviously, whatever he's been paying big money for ain't working. So, I'm going to see if I can get through to him and change his attitude in life. From time to time, he has this overwhelming feeling to kill himself. Since I respect him as a person, should I just let him kill himself? I guess the point I've been trying to make with way way way too many words is the line between a mental disorder (i.e. overwhelming urge to kill oneself) and just an irregular state of being (i.e. gay, lesbian, etc.) is not so well defined. It is in fact very blurry. We need to take an objective view on these things. Do I believe gender identity disorder is actually a disorder or just a state of being? I believe that it depends on the person. For some, it really could improve their lives greatly. For others, we need to look at other aspects in their lives. Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4174 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
You have insight, hands on experience helping TG people that gives you insight that I can not obtain from Google. Thank you for helping your fellow man/woman.
Your link was very informative.....straggler posted some links I haven't got around to yet. The more I learn...the more ignorant I find I am."No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
Then why bring in that example of beating/breaking bones of kids? 1) I didnt2) The example fearandloathing gave is at least a real-world example. It's something that is in fact proposed and believed by many individuals. As opposed to your suggestion that we just "give surgery" to anybody who says they're transgender, which is not something that happens or is seriously proposed by anyone. Fearandloathing made a tangentially-related, possible red-herring post regarding a news story. You latched on to it and in the process posted an extremely topic-relevant strawman of the actual pro-transition-availability position. In a post that itself ironically decried the use of extremist strawman positions. Focus on reality. Nobody actually suggest we should "give surgery" out upon request. In the case of gender reassignment the process is extremely long and complicated with constant evaluation along the way to ensure that the person is committed to their intended lifestyle and is prepared and capable of going through with it long before a surgeon picks up a scalpel. Your amateur psychoanalysis of your tiny sample size is irrelevant. Even if a person is "not quite right" by your standards, that doesn't mean that the person is not medically and legally of sound mind. People are diverse. Some individuals will have behaviors and make decisions that seem odd to others. That doesn't actually make them crazy, nor should it prevent them from undergoing gender reassignment if they meet the qualifications established and are determined to be psychologically sound by actual professionals. I'm fully aware of the long series of prereqs for gender reassignment procedure. Then don't make posts, even in jest or in exaggeration, where you specifically say that we're "giving surgery" to anybody who says they're transgender.
What I've been saying is that from my personal experience with people who have undergone surgery is that they're not all there up there. And as you've also stated from the beginning, you're not qualified in the least to make the determination of whether those people are "all there up there." Your opinion is irrelevant. In order to have the procedure, those individuals had to be passed through by actual professionals whose opinions do matter, significantly more than you or I playing Armchair Freud.
No, I'm not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist. That's why I've befriended these people and have interacted with them on many many occasions. After knowing them for years, I still think they're not all there up there. Irrelevant. Friendship and interaction does not convey competence to evaluate mental stability, soundness of mind, or the appropriateness of gender reassignment. Didn't you yourself just post in another thread a suggestion to a cdesign proponentist that she look up the Dunning-Kruger Effect? Why do you believe that you're immune from that particular bias? Why do you believe that your personal evaluation of the soundness of a person's mind has any relevance when compared to the professional evaluations of actual psychiatrists?
Did they fall through the cracks or do they need to look again at the prereqs? Or are you simply insufficiently competent to recognize your own incompetence to make such evaluations?
Then don't bring in that example of beating and breaking bones. Again - I didn't. But - again - the example fearandloathing brought up is a real-world example of real-world opinions on the subject. Yes, it's an extreme example, but your counterexample, that we just "give out surgery" to anybody who says they're transgender, is not based in reality, extreme or otherwise.
Look, I understand what transgender people go through, or at least I really really try to. They're not just outcasts to the "normal" society, they're outcasts to the mainstream lgbt culture, which is mostly gay men and women anyway. Indeed.
And I used to fully support gender reassignment surgery to "fix" some of their problems (after extensive evaluations by professionals, of course). But after years of interacting and knowing these people on a personal level, I've begun to question whether they were even fully aware of what they wanted. Perhaps instead of questioning their mental competency you should be questioning your own competency in evaluating their competency in the first place. Because honestly, Taz, if a psychiatrist tells me that Person X is of sufficiently sound mind to begin the transition process, and Taz comes and says "I dunno, that person doesn't seem quite right to me," I'm going with the psychiatrist's trained, expert opinion.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Rahvin writes:
And yet studies continue to show that going through surgery didn't make a difference in many of the transgendered people's mental health.
Because honestly, Taz, if a psychiatrist tells me that Person X is of sufficiently sound mind to begin the transition process, and Taz comes and says "I dunno, that person doesn't seem quite right to me," I'm going with the psychiatrist's trained, expert opinion. Why do you believe that you're immune from that particular bias? Why do you believe that your personal evaluation of the soundness of a person's mind has any relevance when compared to the professional evaluations of actual psychiatrists?
I don't. What I have been saying is that from my personal experience gender reassignment surgery didn't do anything to help eliviate the suffering for a lot of transgender people. And studies agree with my observation. At no point did I ever say that what I say is the be all end all of anything. I've even been very careful of what I say to make sure that it is clear I could be wrong on my observations. I've even said I'm not qualified to make the call. If you're going to make a come back, at least be accurate. What I've said is this. I've only found a few transgendered people that I personally would call completely sane. And I've only found one transgendered person (M) who I trust enough to put my life in her hand. That's all from my personal observation. And from my personal observation, I've known people since before they changed and over time I've observed that gender reassignment surgery didn't make them feel better. Studies agree with my personal observation. How many transgendered people do you know? How many do you know since before they changed? Don't tell me you're arguing just to be politically correct. Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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That attitude is the problem. Objectively, it's your attitude that is the problem, since of our two attitudes, you're the one who appropriates the right to tell other people what surgeries they can have, regardless of the degree of reflection and assent from the medical community they may have achieved.
How you act is how you act and what you are is what you are - and ne'er the twain should have to meet. That's exactly, precisely wrong. Stupidly so. What you are and how you act are the same thing. It's surprising to have to tell an adult that.
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