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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Ringo writes: You're assuming that the body is wrong and needs to be changed. I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply pointing out that transsexualism is about self-identity and a mind-body mismatch.
Ringo writes: So where does that idea of a "wrong body" come from? What creates the "internal identity"? The mind.
Ringo writes: How is that different from somebody who wants to have a healthy leg amputated because it "feels wrong"? I think there are similarities with 'Body Identity Integrity Disorder' but that these can be overstated. One's sex is a far more fundamental component of self-identity than how many limbs one has. If I lost a leg I would still be me. If I somehow swapped bodies and had a different set of hormones and even a different brain physiology how much of "me" was retained would be a difficult and interesting question to try and answer.
Ringp writes: Is there such a thing as a white man trapped in a black man's body? Would race reassignment surgery be the solution? That is an interesting question. Has there ever been a case of this?
Ringo writes: Why not change the mind instead? Firstly - If we had psychological treatments that worked and which patients were happy with then I doubt anyone would be advocating surgery as an answer. Secondly - The reason people may not want their minds altered is because we are our minds. And the fear is to lose self-identity. To use my rather extreme mind-body mismatch comparison once again: If you woke up one day to find yourself in the body of a baboon do you think that resolving your mind-body mismatch by changing your mind to that of a baboon would be a viable answer to your plight?
Stragger writes: If I woke up to find myself in a body that I felt made any life impossible to live (e.g. completely paralysed) I might well prefer death. If I could change that body the need to contemplate death as a solution would obviously vanish. Ringo writes: It isn't obvious at all. Next week, your girlfriend would leave you because you mutilated your genitals - and suicide would be the solution again. You are assuming that someone who deems death preferable to to existing in a body that makes life unbearable will deem death preferable to every single other problem in life as well. I don't think that is a justifiable assumption on your part.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Straggler,
Ringp writes: Is there such a thing as a white man trapped in a black man's body? Would race reassignment surgery be the solution? That is an interesting question. Has there ever been a case of this? Michael Jackson? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Possibly. And I'll grant you that didn't turn out too well.
But we are at risk here of conflating people's desires to conform to popular conceptions of "beauty" with issues of identity. For example that many East Asians undergo blepharoplasty arguably has much more to do with conceptions of what is attractive than some sort of desire for these people to make their Asian features match their 'inner Westerner' identity.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Do people get sex change operations simply because they have demanded it? Don't get slick with me, mister. You're the one who said they wanted the sex change or they would commit suicide. Sounds like a pretty harsh demand to me. That's why I'm asking if we should give into the demand. I wouldn't have asked otherwise.
Is that how you think it works? It's like a Mr. Potato Head, right?
Isn't that for doctors, psychologists to assess based on detailed evaluation of the patient over an extended period of time? Who the hell are you to say no?
I'm not saying no, I'm saying is it really life saving? I have linked a few studies in which the evidence shows it was not life saving and in fact made the patient worse off than before.
I am mystified as to your objection to surgery on some sort of ideological principle. If it is genuinely deemed the best course of action for the patient (in the absence of superior and less drastic alternatives that may or may not appear at some later date) - Why should it be removed as an option? Because on the real, I don't believe doctors are acting in the best interest of the patient and are instead acting on the best intrest of themselves. The want the money from the surgery and can careless about the emotional state, before or after, of the patient. Same goes for most cases of plastic surgery. They want the money, they can careless how the girl feels after when her new tits aren't giving her the lifestyle she thought would come out of it.
That isn't how it works. As you full know. So it's not a Mr. Potato Head. Got it. - Oni
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
Well, that is the topic, basically, so why not try to answer it? Why all the thundering silence when the question is asked?
If I somehow swapped bodies and had a different set of hormones and even a different brain physiology how much of "me" was retained would be a difficult and interesting question to try and answer. How is that identity formed? I have suggested that there's a social component.
Straggler writes:
On the other hand, we've had indications in this very thread that surgery doesn't work very well.
If we had psychological treatments that worked and which patients were happy with then I doubt anyone would be advocating surgery as an answer. Straggler writes:
Or is it fear of losing the stereotypical self-identity that they they think they "should" have?
The reason people may not want their minds altered is because we are our minds. And the fear is to lose self-identity. Straggler writes:
Not "every single" other problem, "an" other problem. People who are suicidal don't usually have just one issue.
You are assuming that someone who deems death preferable to to existing in a body that makes life unbearable will deem death preferable to every single other problem in life as well.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
You haven't shown that there's a difference between out "self-identity" and the popular conception of what we should be.
But we are at risk here of conflating people's desires to conform to popular conceptions of "beauty" with issues of identity.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Straggler says:
I'm simply pointing out that transsexualism is about self-identity and a mind-body mismatch. Just a reminder that you may be straying away from your own well-argued refutation of duality back in the Illusion Of Free Will thread. Certainly in my argument the mind is a part of the body. It is the part of the body that contains the self-identity you allude to. As you state here, you can cut off a leg and you are still you. You can poke out an eye and you are still you. You can get a heart transplant and you are still you. But you cannot get a brain transplant. You can get a body transplant when your brain is put into another body (say into a baboon's, to maintain a certain thematic continuity in this thread). It was offered here in this thread that a "cure" for dealing with the life-long desire of wanting to go through the long & arduous process of transgendering, is that, instead, you could change your mind. I'm sure you may also find such an approach similar to the fallacy of a brain transplant - the death of the original person and a new inhabitant of the body. So yes, agreeing, you quote Ringo
Ringo writes: You're assuming that the body is wrong and needs to be changed. I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply pointing out that transsexualism is about self-identity and a mind-body(sic) mismatch.
Ringo writes: So where does that idea of a "wrong body" come from? What creates the "internal identity"? The mind.
Ringo didn't word it correctly for the purpose of this argument. He said "the body" and "a wrong body" rather than "that part of the body that is not the mind". I think that for successfully diagnosed candidates for transgender procedure, it is indeed the "the part of the body that is not the mind" that is wrong for "the part that is the mind". Case in point: Ringo in Message 165 says:
You're assuming that the body is wrong and needs to be changed. Why not change the mind instead? For those who have gone through the long psychological evaluation & all the years of analysis and nonetheless still are certain of their predicament, this is tantamount to saying "Why not let someone else live in your body?"- xongsmith, 5.7d
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
xongsmith writes:
I don't think I've ever suggested anything as a "cure". I've suggested that if A and B don't match, you shouldn't fixate on A being "wrong". It might make more sense to change B. It was offered here in this thread that a "cure" for dealing with the life-long desire of wanting to go through the long & arduous process of transgendering, is that, instead, you could change your mind. Also, I don't know if English is your first language but there are several possible interpretations of the phrase, "change your mind." I didn't mean it in the trivial sense of changing one's mind about what to order from the menu. I meant it in the sense of adjusting B to match A rather than A to match B. I don't think a wholesale change such as a "brain transplant" makes any sense in this context at all.
xongsmith writes:
I'd say that they already have "somebody else" living in their body.
For those who have gone through the long psychological evaluation & all the years of analysis and nonetheless still are certain of their predicament, this is tantamount to saying "Why not let someone else live in your body?"
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Ringo notes:
xongsmith writes:
I'd say that they already have "somebody else" living in their body. .....()....this is tantamount to saying "Why not let someone else live in your body?" Ahah! I think I get it. Not sure. Trying to understand where you are coming from, and this has been maybe the most illuminating thing you have said.
SO - just who is living in this (the body minus the part that is the mind)? Would you grant intelligent lifeform rights to this "somebody else"?? No? why not? Who is the they as in the "they already have "somebody else" living in their body"? Who has been kidnapped in their own body? Where can I find this usurped entity?- xongsmith, 5.7d
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
xongsmith writes:
Our society generally recognizes one set of rights per body. I personally advocate equal rights for all homo sapiens regardless of the size, shape, age, etc. of the body.
Would you grant intelligent lifeform rights to this "somebody else"?? xongsmith writes:
"They" is the plural of "he/she" - just a reference to transgendered people in general, nothing spooky.
Who is the they as in the "they already have "somebody else" living in their body"? xongsmith writes:
It isn't a matter of kidnapping or usurpation. It's more a matter of the body owner not having a firm grip on his/her own identity.
Who has been kidnapped in their own body? Where can I find this usurped entity?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Ringo writes: But we are at risk here of conflating people's desires to conform to popular conceptions of "beauty" with issues of identity. Ringo writes: You haven't shown that there's a difference between out "self-identity" and the popular conception of what we should be. So you think it impossible to have any concept of self or identity in the absence of others?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Ringo writes: I have suggested that there's a social component. And I have suggested that there is a non-social component. Are you denying that there can be any non-social component to transsexualism?
Wiki writes: The etiology of transsexualism, meaning the cause or causes of transsexualism, is an area of interest for many transgender and transsexual people, physicians, psychologists, other mental health professionals, and family members and friends of transsexual people. Transsexualism usually presents with an expression of gender identity different from the gender assigned at birth, behaviors typical of that gender, and discomfort called gender dysphoria.[1] Currently, there are numerous scientific explanations of the cause of transsexualism, linking the cause to genetics, brain structure, brain function and prenatal androgen exposure; in addition other theories have proposed linking the cause to psychological and behavioral reasons. These theories are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Link So how do we tackle these non-social causes?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Straggler writes:
I'm saying that it would be pretty unlikely to have a concept of self or identity that isn't influenced by others. And a concept of self or identity that's isolated too much would probably be considered a mental illness.
So you think it impossible to have any concept of self or identity in the absence of others?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Ringo writes: I'm saying that it would be pretty unlikely to have a concept of self or identity that isn't influenced by others. OK. But if one's self identity isn't wholly determined by others then simply changing how others react to someone isn't going to solve all issues of self identity is it? So, let's agree that others should treat transsexuals with tolerance but that this won't solve the whole issue. So, that said, how else can we address issues of sexual identity....?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Oni writes: Because on the real, I don't believe doctors are acting in the best interest of the patient and are instead acting on the best intrest of themselves. The want the money from the surgery and can careless about the emotional state, before or after, of the patient. If people in the US are getting any form of surgery to make doctors rich rather than to benefit patients I would suggest that is a problem related to the nature of healthcare funding in the US rather than with transsexual surgery specifically. Elsewhere in the world, where such surgery is publicly funded, the aim is to benefit the patient. If the patient in question is diagnosed by the long term team of doctors, psychologists etc. studying the case as warranting sex change surgery on the basis that the patient is so desperate as for this to be the only remaining option - Who are you to disagree?
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