Summations Only

Privilege runs the opposite way, I think - I've never been so privileged that I could spend a summer at an unpaid internship, with my parents to pay the bills. I think you'll find that it's precisely the unprivileged who can't afford to work for free. Like I said I don't know anyone so privileged that they have the luxury of taking on full-time work that doesn't pay anything. Don't you think looking for full-time work where you could start immediately is a better use of your time than 6 months of unpaid work with no guarantee of a job at the end of it? That's what I'm getting at, though - you don't have to be hired to get the experience. Experience isn't something you're given, it's something you gain. If you want to get a job doing a certain kind of work, but you don't have the experience doing the work, do the work! Don't fetch coffee hoping you can get "experience" from watching other people work. If you want experience as a writer, write. If you want experience programming, write programs. I've got this job right now as an embedded software developer solely on the basis of code samples I had because, while I was looking for work, I wrote software for embedded platforms using free tools. Never held a programming job in my life until now, but I had experience because I wrote software. Sensible people can get all of that without wasting time getting coffee when they could be taking pictures. Seriously, nobody is ever going to hire you to be a photographer because you fetched coffee for the right people. You get hired as a photographer because you can take great pictures, and if that's your goal, then every minute you're not learning about taking great pictures is time wasted. I invite people to seek out all of the above. I'm just not convinced that someone who is exploiting your labor with the false promise of "experience" is going to serve you well as a mentor or instructor. I invite people to volunteer; I did volunteer work myself. But we're not talking about volunteering, we're talking about unpaid work. You've missed the point, I think. The issue here is that someone who watched you stock shelves all day for free isn't going to be much of a reference, because they haven't seen you do anything but busywork. Volunteering comes with challenges, and you can certainly have a good reference in someone with whom you met those challenges. One of my own references is from a volunteer gig I had. But the context of this thread isn't volunteering, it's about forcing people to do low-return, menial labor for free for no other reason than the work isn't worth even minimum wage.

And so naturally... everyone should do it the Crashfrog way.NOT!

And when you're freshly released from prison for possession of illegal drugs, having anyone who can say you are good at anything will go miles toward getting you a real job and a real life.Same if you've been unemployed for nine monthshaven't had to show up on time anywhere for nine months, haven't had to interact with customers for nine months, haven't had to interact with co-workers for nine months, haven't demonstrated to anyone that you are dependable for nine months. Having someone who can at least vouch for your ability, willingness, and performance in doing even the basic things expected of paid employees really gives you a leg up over all those people who have just been sitting on the couch for nine months.Granted, I think that the government's efforts are better spent helping people get experience at more career-oriented things than stocking shelves, but hey, when rsum time comes around, putting down any job is better than putting down no job, and putting down any reference is better than putting down no reference.And I'm sorry, Crash, I truly am sorry that your mind is so closed to realizing even these most basic truths of the world we live in.JonEdited by Jon, : No reason given.

These programs are for people who are becomming so skill-less as to be unemployable.

Well, how's it working with the "go into debt for a good school, get a good major, work unpaid internships, check all the boxes, color inside the lines, and eventually someone will give you what you want" way? My understanding is, that stopped working for people in about 2008. Maybe before then. It certainly never worked for me or anyone I know.I'm not trying to control people's lives - that's you, remember? - I'm just saying, if you're finding that not having experience is holding you back in your career, the solution is pretty simple - go out and have the experience. There's literally nothing stopping you.

And yet not sitting on the couch for nine months is going to give you a better leg up, still.I'm just not seeing the value of these "references." Again, everybody has a reference who will say how dependable and hard-working they are. Something that gets you from the bottom of the resume pile to the middle isn't, actually, that much of a help, since they hire at the top of the pile. You need something that gets you to the top of the pile. A busywork reference is setting your sights way too low. My mind is closed only to statements that are offered without any evidence.

Except the cost of supplies and materials and the required education.Say you want to become a diesel mechanic. How do you get experience being a diesel mechanic? Do you buy a few semi tractors? Do you go down to the train yard and see if they have a locomotive you can borrow?And those tools... oh those tools! Unless you're screwing bolts in with your fingers, you're going to need some tools. How will you get those?Then once you get those essentials, you need to start practicing. But where do you start? Do you just find one of your expensive diesel rigs that doesn't work and start tearing it apart? Do you try a dozen fixes for each part before finally getting lucky fixing the problem or unlucky completely destroying your expensive engine? How do you know what to do to avoid throwing endless amounts of cash down the drain replacing your guinea pig diesel engines?And then, finally, how does our "unprivileged" fellow "who can't afford to work for free" find the resources not only to sit around fixing and destroying diesel rigs with no pay but to actually pay for all the supplies and 'teaching materials' himself?So where do the "unprivileged" get the cash to just "go out and have the experience"? 'Cause I'm feelin' a little unprivileged of late, and my inquiring mind would really like to know how I can get experience without working for free or forking over large sums of money for supplies (= worse than working for free).Or should I just stop complaining and go do it? If a fella really wants to be a diesel mechanic, should he just stop complaining? Perhaps he should. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps he should just go have the experience.I mean, after all, there's literally nothing stopping him!

Except, of course, the people who don't.

You're misrepresenting the context. We're talking about people who already have the education but lack qualifying experience. My advice to them is that they should get experience, because experience is something you have, it's not something that an employer gives to you. I don't have much advice for people who have no qualifications at all for the work they want to do, except that they should probably find another line of work in the interim, because they're not going to be hired at zero qualifications. By fixing engines. If someone, indeed, has absolutely never seen an engine, never held or owned a tool, can't get into mechanic school, can't read a book on the subject, and works 20 hours a day leaving no time to do anything else, how do they know they want to fix engines? As always, the counterexamples you present are all but nonsensical. There are certainly people for whom a $3 wrench from Sears represents an unsupportable luxury, but I would submit that such people have much larger problems than an unmet desire for experience working with engines. My advice to such people would be to focus on the near term, figure out where your next couple of meals and a place to sleep are going to come from, put a little money together if you can, and then start to think about pursuing your dreams. I don't know how it would work any other way. I certainly don't see how someone who can't afford a $3 wrench is going to benefit from working for absolutely nothing, which you'll recall is your position.

Dupe post deleted.Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

There is nobody who doesn't, except individuals who no one will recommend as "hard-working and dependable" because they're genuinely such unreliable layabouts. The fact that complete fuck-ups frequently can't pass themselves off as anything but fuck-ups is unfortunate, but they should stop being fuck-ups if they want to stop being regarded as fuck-ups.Of the many problems our society has, the inability of some lazy individuals to be thought of as hard-working isn't one of them. That's the system working as intended.Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

Indeed it does. I'm not saying that unpaid work is right for everyone, I'm just contesting that it is not right for anyone. The main thrust of the topic is about people who are not getting employed at all. And instead of parents paying the bills, its the government. They do exist. And its not always a privilege. My point all along has largely been that it depends on factors you haven't mentioned.Let's say you've been looking for work for two years unsuccesfully. Perhaps a few menial jobs here and there to survive, but nothing that matches your qualifications or long term aspirations. You've received feedback that your main problem is your lack of experience. One employer says they will take you on in unpaid capacity which will also serve as a long interview and training. They say they can't guarantee paid employment (vagaries of business, your unknown competence etc), but suggest that it would strongly increase their probability of getting employed in the role they want.I wouldn't blame a person for turning it down, but likewise I can perfectly understand them taking it. It depends on the job, and the kind of experience employers are looking for. Right, and one way to gain that experience is to do the job. And if you can't persuade someone to pay you to do it, you might be able to
persuade them to let you do it for free for a while. Different people learn in different ways. Some people learn better when they figure stuff out on their own. Some people do better by talking out their questions with an expert, watching them work and instead of stumbling on trade secrets, acquire them directly. Others like to learn by reading. And sometimes people choose different ways of learning based on the situation. Right, and if you want experience handling a commercial database in a working environment your going to need to get into the workplace to get that experience. You can learn all you want about database theory, but if you find yourself constantly competing for such a role with people with experience actually doing the work - you're going to struggle. How is it a false promise? One will quite literally experience working in one's vocation, the exact experience one is seeking. I fail to see the practical difference. In both instances you are performing labour with no renumeration. Therefore in both cases you are doing the work for reasons other than getting paid. If we're talking shelf-stacker, we're talking about someone at the bottom of the employment rung. In that case, all they might be looking for in a reference is someone who will vouch that they turn up on time every day. That way they can provide evidence to a potentially paying employer that they are as good a shelf-stacker as they can be expected to be. They might not shine against others with reference, but at least they'll have better odds than a person with no references at all. Nobody is being forced to do low-return menial labour for free.They have a choice:Find a paying job.
OR
Collect welfareAs ever, that welfare is conditional. The condition is: you must try and get a paying job.If after several years of looking for a job, you haven't found one then there is a problem. Either you are trying to avoid getting a job, or are somehow unemployable. You now have a choice:Find a paying job
OR
Do 6 months 'unpaid' work experience in an attempt to increase your employability, get you back into the habit of working and you will continue to receive welfare.
OR
discontinue receiving welfare and find some way to get by without normal sources of income.If you've been looking for work for years, what more productive thing were you planning to do in those six months? And nobody is forcing you, society is just saying 'We're not going to keep paying you to not work without doing everything conceivable to get you into regular employment.'Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Your country and mine have the same problem - unemployment is high because aggregate demand is low, therefore the business need for labor is low. Nobody's been able to explain what it is about "unpaid work for the unemployed" that solves the problem of low aggregate demand. So let's keep paying them. Unemployment benefits are stimulating at a factor of 6:1 - every dollar spent in unemployment benefits causes six dollars to be spent in the economy, boosting demand. God forbid, let us not make the economy even worse by reducing wage levels and further depressing aggregate demand. How the hell does that make any sense? Sure, but doing it yourself is also free, and the best part of it is that you're your own boss, you can do it at your own pace, you don't have to pay for gas or bus fare since you're working at home, and you get to keep all the results of your own labor. Advantage: just doing it. Not in the least. The same LAMP architecture at work in commercial databases is a free download. If you want to work with it in a working environment, then build something with it that works and that people use. Like a forum dedicated to discussing creationism. Then talk with an expert. How are you going to talk with the expert while he's working and you're down the street getting his Starbucks? And what about when you want to talk with a different expert? Why lock yourself in via fake employment? Sure - one problem might be that there's 40 million jobs and 50 million job-seekers, because depressed aggregate demand means that everybody - especially the unemployed - is buying a lot less of everything. If that's the case, then training people to be better applicants doesn't reduce the unemployment rate, it just changes who's going to be one of the 10 million who don't have a job. Training someone to be better at musical chairs might guarantee that they get a seat, but it doesn't change the number of seats, or reduce the rate of seatlessness. You actually need more chairs for that.The problem, in both the US and the UK, is high unemployment due to a shortfall in aggregate demand. Nobody's been able to explain how that's a problem best solved by people working for free. Aren't people without any money going to spend a lot less?

They'll benefit more than working for nothing plus having to buy a $3 wrench.And that's what it's all about: maximizing benefits. For the simple fact that none of those things you mentioned have anything to do with the scenario I set up.Unless, of course, you can point me to the places where I said "has absolutely never seen an engine, never held or owned a tool, can't get into mechanic school, can't read a book on the subject, and works 20 hours a day leaving no time to do anything else".Can you find where I said that? Even if experience fixing diesel engines is the only thing separating them from a life of welfare benefits and a life of productive, meaningful employment?Really?That's your honest position?Really?

But they don't have to buy a $3 wrench. Whether or not they want a wrench at all is up to them, and it's not a result of their employment status, but perhaps a condition of it. Free or not mechanics usually provide their own tools, just as chefs provide their own knives. Those are restatements of the obstacles you listed. Did you forget your own post? Why don't they have experience, then, if they have a pile of tools and a degree from a technical college in Diesel Engine Repair? What were they doing all that time, around all those engines, all that education in how to fix them, if not actually fixing engines? If nothing else this points to the importance of attempting to apply what you learned while you're learning it instead of assuming that you'll graduate with a degree and then automatically, someone will just give you the experience in how to actually use it.Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.