Summations Only

See this is where you continue to misrepresent people and are being disingenuous.I said not everything winds up on a resume, like the example Mod gave with the wedding photography. I didn't say NONE OF IT winds up on a resume. Certainly being Apatow's assistant or being an intern on Conan winds up on a resume.All the unpaid acting work winds up on a resume. All the unpaid intern work does too, so does assistant jobs. People want to know you've been on set and have on-set experience.So it IS relevant to what has been talked about. I can get a job in the movies right now as production assistant, but I'm busy being a professional stand-up comic. A profession I did for free for about 5 years.- Oni

If I had interpreted it incorrectly from the beginning you would have said that I was interpreting it incorrectly, from the beginning. So when I said that you can't get experience from getting coffee, why did you disagree so strenuously? How can you expect me to believe that you weren't defending the position that you can get experience by fetching coffee when all you've done is defend the position that you can get experience by fetching coffee, and attack my position that there's no experience in photography to be had from fetching coffee?I mean, regardless of whether or not you were clear, surely Iwas? You don't claim that you misunderstood my arguments. So why, then, did you spend all that time attacking me while I was taking the position that you can't get useful experience as a photographer fetching coffee, when you supposedly held that exact same position the whole time and understood the arguments I was making?Do you see why I can't believe you, CS? I would have to be a fucking idiot to believe that you've been holding the position you've been attacking, this whole time. Nothing you did in this thread is consistent, in the least, with the explanation that I've misunderstood you this whole time. If I had, you would have agreed with me when I said that you couldn't get experience as a photographer by fetching coffee. But you didn't. So I know you're lying, now. I disagree. Message 17 is my argument why. If it's what you wanted to talk with me about, why didn't you reply to it?

Well, here's the facts: Not every unpaid assistant will end up as a major motion picture director, BUT, every major motion picture director was an unpaid assistant.The rest of what you wrote is just nonsense, clearly written by someone who knows nothing about the subject. So I won't even bother with it.- Oni

See, this is how you people continue to lie right to my face and think I can't go back and read your words: This is how you guys consistently quote out of context and play word games to change your positions while you think nobody is looking. Jar calls it "palming the pea" and it's a pretty good description of the sort of misdirection and misrepresentation you've just used to exploit the fact that your reply is on a different page than my message to make me look like I said you said "none of it winds up on a resume."And you guys have the temerity to think I'm the one misrepresenting people? Unbelievable. Who the hell do you think you guys can fool with this? Oh, "too busy." Good luck with that.

No argument with it, then, I guess. Noted.

It's not a word game, its just a word and you were getting tripped up on it.CS was talking about a valuable experience.You interpreted him to mean 'an experience working as a photographer' which would be a valuable, mandatory even, experience, but he was talking about a different experience. And now you know what experience we were talking about, I hope that clears it all up. No. You are insisting we're talking about it, but we keep saying that (in the photography section of this discussion) we're not. CS was simply coming up with a simple scenario where one might do a bit of work for free: to acquire the valuable experience of seeing a pro at work and asking them questions and what have you.This subthread is in the context of learning from a pro when considering becoming self employed in certain fields. In some contexts maybe you can, but even if we presume not its unimportant. What you get is real, useful experience.In the other subthread, where we're talking about long term unemployed doing workfare specifically, that's where I'm highlighting the importance of actual experience doing the job especially when applying for a new job especially in certain marketplaces.Even in my job, insurance, shadowing an expert in a field for a day is a marketable experience it can lead to pay rises and promotions. Did you somehow think that workfare is designed for photographers? That exchanging being a coffee boy for learning useful tips of the trade was comparable to having to do six months work in order to continue collecting job seeker's allowance?Workfare is a separate issue than the aside we're having here.Here we're just trying to persuade you that there is any situation at all where doing unpaid work might be to your benefit. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Because Mod gave a single example of something that may be gained as experience, but it wasn't representing the whole of being the right-hand to a photographer. It was just a single example.The point is that being the assistant DOES make it on the resume, but the specifics of what you learned don't.Resume: Judd Apatow's production assitant on an indie non-SAG film. (That means no wages)Not on the resume: Judd taught me to film just before dawn to not have to fuss with lighting for quick fill-in shots.See the difference?But the bigger point here is that we're having to explain this to you using ridiculously specific examples like we're talking to a child. Foreveryoung? Well, I am typing all this in bed in my underwear, so you may have a point there. I do have a real job during the day, not every day only as needed, in the tv business. For a channel you probably watch every night. I got that job because I was a comic for so many years, and again, the first 5 were basically for free with the occasional $20 bucks and a bar tab here and there.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Another straw man. Who is arguing that a professional make-up artist would get LESS marketable experience than a helper? What is wrong with you?However, this IS about degrees of experience as Mod had explained calmly and repeatedly. It's about getting a small or large degree of advantage over the NON-experienced on a resume.BEST on resume: Actually working as a make-up artist.
BETTER on resume: non-paid work as Academy Award winner Baker's helper.
WORST on resume: NO experience what-so-ever.Of the LAST TWO options, at face-value, which is the MORE valuable/experienced candidate for a make-up position?

Normally, I would. But I've read enough of your posts to know that arguing with you about your interpretation of the details of the analogy would turn into this, a complete derailment of the thread. So instead, I would avoid getting into the details, just like I did. That is, until I made a snide aside to Jon when I saw he was noticing the same behavior from you that I had noticed, that we are now discussing, and then I decided to go ahead and get into the details, where I started with expressing a lack of desire to derail the thread. Message 102I didn't, what are you talking about? I never defended the position that you can get experience by fetching coffee. I specifically and explicitly stated that I never meant that you could get experience by fetching coffee. Because I'm familiar with your posting style - that is: twisting the analogy by misinterpreting the details. I honestly figure that you just do it on purpose and are having some fun with us, but I'm starting to think that you do have some sort of comprehension problem. I just figured you for a dishonest jerk, but you seem to be saying that you really and truely aren't understanding what we're saying. I'm starting to see why you think you can't believe me, but its based on the falsehood that I've been attacking that position - I've never said you can get experience by fetching coffee. Everything has been consistent with that from the beginning. Tell you what: start over from the beginning of my posts with the knowledge that I never meant that you can get experience from fetching coffee and point out where my posts don't make sense if that's true. I'm not lying. I didn't agree with you because I wanted to avoid the issue of arguing over the details of the analogy rather than using the analogy to discuss the topic. That is, until I changed my mind and decided to get into this. Because I was gone and when I got back the discussion had already progressed (by 50 mesages or so) towards the specific benefits you can get from working for free - which is where I chimed back in. And you never replied back to those posts.

No, it's a discussion, the discussion has context, and that context has always been that we're talking about the sort of experience that helps you get a job. That's the context we started with. Now you're trying to pretend like that context was never present. Maybe you didn't understand that it was present, that's understandable when you jump into the middle of someone else's conversation, but in that case you should just admit that you misunderstood. No, he wasn't. He says he is now, but he's lying. It's a dodge - it's transparently a dodge. Otherwise he would have told me I misunderstood him from the get-go. No, you get tips. Real, useful experience is exactly what we've now all agreed you don't get. I mean, I don't understand how that's still unclear - you all have agreed with me that you don't get real, valuable, "can put it on a resume" experience that can help you get your next job. You've all already agreed that you can get some valuable tips. But "valuable tips" isn't what CS said. What he said was invaluable experience. And when I said that you don't get that, you just get tips, he disagreed and for five pages, argued against the exact position he now claims to agree with.So clearly there was no misunderstanding. There's just CS's lies and your misrepresentations. But you'd get paid while you did it. That's why they call it "on-the-job training" - you do it on the clock. I don't know if it is or not. If it's not, why are we talking about photographers? How is this an aside? This is now most of the thread, so far. Another one of your misrepresentations.

But it's the example we're talking about. Why does it mean "no wages"? No, you have to explain this to me like you're talking to someone who believes that you're wrong and doesn't take your word for things. CS is acting like that's somehow unfair, but that's the adversarial mode of discussion between people who hold mutually irreconcilable positions: I defend mine, and you defend yours. I'm sorry to make you guys work for it, but don't mistake your impotence for my intractability. I'm perfectly willing to be convinced by your arguments. You just have to make the effort to make them convincing.Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

Yeah, that Mod! Don't get me started on his intellectually lazy-ass posts. He is like a rug on valium.

But that's exactly why it's turned into this - you didn't correct me when the "misunderstanding" supposedly happened.If you have read my posts, then you know that when I've genuinely misunderstood someone and they correct me in response, I accept it and move on. It's when I haven't and they pretend I have that it derails the thread, because it's dishonest to claim that the axis of disagreement was all just a big misunderstanding as a dodge when you're losing the debate, and when people started trying to do that to me I decided I wasn't going to allow it. I didn't allow Dronester to get away with it, I didn't allow PD to get away with it, and I won't allow you and Mod to get away with it either. And the ultimate result of those discussions was that Dronester and PD lost all credibility in debate because everyone could see how dishonest they were, and I gained a reputation for tenacity. And the same thing is going to happen here because of your dishonesty.I'm really trying to help you, CS, when I tell you that you really just need to admit error on this and move on. I promise, I won't even ever bring it up again. This isn't a "limited-time offer" or anything. You've stated it now, yes, but I thought I made it clear that I know you're lying. If you weren't lying you would have stated it back when it was clear I interpreted you as claiming you could get experience by fetching coffee. If you'll recall, this happened back when you claimed you could get experience as a photographer by fetching them coffee. If you had really thought then that that was a stupid thing to believe, you would have agreed with me when I told you how stupid it was.But what's actually happened is that I convinced you that it's stupid, and but you don't want to admit that I did, because that would be an admission that I was right about something and knew better than you, so now you want to pretend like you thought that all along and make me out to be the one who was agreeing with you. But that's a lie. It's dishonest, because that's not what happened. So stop trying to pretend like it is. Just admit that you were wrong. I don't understand why it's so hard. I promise, I have no desire to crow about it. I'll never even mention it again. I'm telling you that I really and truly do understand what you were saying, and that you are really and truly lying about what you were saying now.I understood you then. Now you're trying to lie about what you said, then, so that it looks like I misunderstood. But I didn't misunderstand. If I had you would have said so, and you would have agreed with me when I told you it was stupid to think you could get experience as a photographer by fetching coffee.But you didn't agree. You disagreed. You disagreed so strongly, in fact, that you told me I was somehow out of bounds for even saying it. That proves that I correctly understood you at the time and that you're lying, now. They were one-liners, there was nothing to reply to.

Crashfrog asks: I'll answer that.Since I've been involuntarily retired from the software engineering business, I've continued to hone my 52-year on-and-off career as a singer/songwriter - appearing in hundreds of coffeehouses & open mike nights, occasionally getting a Feature and proving that you can make tens of dollars to offset the hundreds of dollars you have to spend to show up at all these places.I also continue to work on designing abstract games, such as the one shown in my avatar, where you might make a penny or 2 back for each hundred dollars spent some day if you are luckier than I have been so far.Lately I've been getting some hands-on experience in Estate Settlement that cannot be used as experience on my resume, since I am doing it on my own.I could be collecting social security, but decided to wait 1 more year when the amount will be close enough to live with. But, with my luck, the Republicans & Romney may have destroyed it by then.

And the example that CS gave was of a person gaining experience that will help them turn professional. He said it quite a while ago:

quote:

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I don't really want to derail this thread into a discussion about the unpleasantness of your responses.

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You spun my photographer assistant analogy six ways from sideways. You completely twisted the example away from its point towards supporting your own position.

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That's in reference to you focusing on the unpaid work aspect (ie getting coffee) rather than the valuable experience you can get between coffee runs. And acquiring tips is a useful experience. But you can get real valuable experience that helps you sell work and keep paying the bills if you plan to freelance as many photographers do. Yes, I'm sure he didn't mean 'priceless' and instead meant 'extremely useful'. Under normal circumstances we could just ask him, but you'd only accuse him of being a liar or something.Getting valuable tips is the experience we're all talking about. Except you. And its causing you chronic problems understanding our positions and is now forcing you to proclaim all and sundry as being liars and misrepresenting you. But it didn't become a marketable activity because I was being paid for it. I could still use it in an interview for example even if I didn't get paid to follow someone around. You said that you can't gain relevant and useful experience by working for free.CS offered a counter example where one gets a valuable experience. He was explicit what experience he was talking about:

quote:

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of watching how they do their job

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I later expanded with some more examples of the kinds of things you might pick up, and CS seems to agree that I had understood his position well enough. Because we aren't talking about the workfare scheme. The main thread is the one where we are discussing that. This is an aside to that as it is not completely on topic where as that almost is.See Message 147 for the last post in that subthread.