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Author | Topic: Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
jaywill writes: " ... and they shall call His name Emmanuel." You cite above the text from Matthew. But the question is whether Isaiah is fulfilled prophesy. Isaiah 7:14. KJV
quote: NIV
quote: The prophecy in Isaiah is about someone that the virgin will call Immanuel. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Yes, but if there was a "prophecy" stating that you'd call him Biff Rocco, then you would call him Biff Rocco, thus making the "prophecy" true. I focus my attention on the prophecy that we know about. What you can cook up off the cuff with cleverness, is of no concern to me.
You'd be writing things like: "There is a classic hymn which has been sung for probably over a centry - "Hark the Herald Angels Sing." That song sung by millions has a line in it refering to "Jesus Our Biff Rocco"." Well, it's not a real prophecy if you have to go out of your way to fulfill it. You do not know the word of God or the ways of God well. If you read the book of Daniel you will see that Daniel studied the prophecies of Jeremiah concerning the 70 year captivity. He did not simply passively wait. He cooperated with God in powerful and regular prayer. Often God and man work together in a smooth coordination - a coordinated cooperation. If your idea is that all fulfillment of prophecy is accompanied by 100% passivity on man's part, you have not noticed many things in the Bible. Now, granted, sometime man's initiative is not according to God's way. But other times the prophecy is accompanied by coordination and cooperation on behalf of a trusting and believing people of God. Read Exodus again. The Hebrews had to cooperate in faith with Moses to have the prophecy fulfilled that they would come out of Egypt.
But besides that, it doesn't fulfill the prophecy. Isaiah says that the woman who bears the child shall name him Immanuel. Okay, it says "the virgin will ... call his name Immanuel." (Jeremiah 7:14) Yes, there is the little difference in Matthew's references - "Behold, the virgin shall be with child ... they shall call His name Emmanuel." (Matt. 1:23) I don't think this is a show stopper. I think it exposes that some people are experts at missing the point. Probably, Mary was the first in a number to call her son that. She may have called Him that before He was born.
Well, she didn't, did she? There is no record in the New Testament of her calling Him thus.
It doesn't say "centuries later someone will write a hymn calling him Immanuel", it says: "therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: a maiden is with child and she will bear a son, and will call his name Immanuel."
I am sure that before Wesley wrote that hymn lovers of Christ had long before refered to Him as Immanuel. The key word here is "lovers". In the intimacy of love you may call your dear spouse things which others do not hear. You hear. She or he hears. And God hears. Maybe some children in the household hear. Why should I depend on those who have no love for Jesus to complain that "He was never called Emmanuel !!" ? Get around those who loved Him over the last 20 centries. I know you would hear Him be called ALL that the Bible uses to designate Him, and some. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
You seem to have missed an important word in my post: YOU. I was talking about YOU, not the people who knew Jesus personally when He was alive. YOU know nothing about Him except what THEY claim. The concept of Jesus being God incarnate starts with the man Jesus and how He LIVED, how He acted, how He spoke and rose from the dead. His personality initiated the belief in us that He is God with us. So the beginning of the so called circle is the testimony born by the man from Nazarath - Jesus. It should be obvious that MOST (if not all) of the believers FIRST believed His person. Then after His resurrection He opened their minds to understand that the law and prophets and psalms had spoke of Him. But whether believing before His acts (as one priest and prophetess or John the Baptist or Joseph and Mary) or those believing after His 3 year ministry including His death and resurrection, both groups believed because of revelation from God. I said that YOU decided first that He was the son of God and then YOU went looking for Old Testament prophecies to back up the belief that YOU already had. THEIR thinking isn't circular. YOURS is.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Okay, it says "the virgin will ... call his name Immanuel." (Jeremiah 7:14) Right, but she actually named him Jesus. Now, you can imagine that Immanuel was one of her pet names for him, but then again you can imagine that Biff Rocco was one her her pet names for him. The fact is that with no evidence for this, you can't claim it as an example of fulfilled prophecy.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
You have that backwards again. It's true that prophecy would be worthless if people did nothing as a result but the point of (most) prohecy is to get people to prevent the fulfilment. They're supposed to stop what they're doing or God won't protect them from the Assyrians, for example.
If your idea is that all fulfillment of prophecy is accompanied by 100% passivity on man's part, you have not noticed many things in the Bible. quote:
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: This seems to assume that "most prophecy" is prediction of negative things. Prophecy is not always warning of impending punishment. In the case that it is concerning punishment, those who stop sinning may postpost the punishment to another generation. They have the good fortune of not suffering the punishment. After they have passed away, it comes on a subsequent unrepentant generation. In the case that they do not repent, the punishment might come in their generation. God can spare a people by postponing the negative prophecy as a result of thier repentance. On a more positive note we have the example of Joseph's dreams in the book of Genesis. He rose to reign over his father and brothers because of his godly integrity and steadfast faith in his God. Do not think that Joseph had no other choices before him after he had been sold into Egyptian slavery. So I don't view God's prophecy as the same as abject fatalism. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Now, you can imagine that Immanuel was one of her pet names for him, but then again you can imagine that Biff Rocco was one her her pet names for him. The fact is that with no evidence for this, you can't claim it as an example of fulfilled prophecy. I CAN do a lot of things. My concern is not with what I CAN do. My concern is what I know has taken place. Christ has certainly been called Emmanuel. Is this your major objection to wanting to believe that Jesus is the Messiah ? Is it in your top three reasons for not believing in Jesus the Messiah ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
It was in the specific case we're discussing though, wasn't it? First God would slap down Assyria to show that He was in charge. Then the impliction is that if the people didn't behave, He'd turn Assyria loose again. There wasn't much scope there for the people to work toward fulfilment, was there?
Prophecy is not always warning of impending punishment. jaywll writes:
As I said, it's usually about avoiding "fate". It is about something positive that you can do to make your life better. It isn't about phonying up the results to make it look like it was fulfilled, which seems to be what you're suggesting.
So I don't view God's prophecy as the same as abject fatalism.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Let's take the example of Jesus fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-2. In this case Christ was in perfect synchronization with the prophecy. His doing and the prediction rendevous precisely.
quote: The volitional act of Jesus and the fulfillment of the prophecy corresponded together perfectly. He was really the Word which became flesh. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Except of course that Isaiah 61 1-2 is Not a prophecy.
Here it is in context:
quote: To take just the first two verses is quote mining, taking material out of context.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I CAN do a lot of things. My concern is not with what I CAN do. My concern is what I know has taken place. Christ has certainly been called Emmanuel. But you have no evidence that his mother named him Immanuel, which is what the prophecy actually says.
Is this your major objection to wanting to believe that Jesus is the Messiah ? Is it in your top three reasons for not believing in Jesus the Messiah ? No, it's my major objection to the claim that this is an example of fulfilled prophecy.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
No, it's my major objection to the claim that this is an example of fulfilled prophecy. Could you consider that it might be an example, in this regard ? We do not see Mary addressing her child as Emmanuel. Nowhere is it recorded that the word "Emmanuel" came out of her mouth in refenrence to her child. But, she did become a disciple of this one (Acts 1:14). She most likely contributed to some of the memories about her experience, which were used by the Gospel writers. Ie. "But Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Luke 2:19) I think it reasonable to assume Luke knew that, because Mary had communicated many of her recollections and memories to the evangelist in the writing of the gospel. Being a disciple of Jesus, she more than considered this child to be just Jesus of Nazareth among us. She considered Him to be God with us. I mean she was a typical Christian disciple. And Thomas confessed that Jesus was his Lord and his God. (John 20:28) -
"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. " Thomas was not corrected or rebuked for refering to Jesus as his God. The other typical disciples were there and took this as basic teaching from their Master. Mary likely also believed Jesus was also her Lord and God. In view of this, would you consider it reasonable to believe that Mary the mother of Jesus, believed that her child was God with us - Emmanuel ? Do you think Mary would have streneously objected to songs about Jesus calling Him Emmanuel ? My opinion, is that while I can concede no record of Jesus being addressed as Emmanuel, He was to them Emmanuel - "God with us". Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
jaywill writes:
So you're saying that Jesus deliberately concocted a phony fulfilment. That's like me "prophesying" that your house will be vandalized and then throwing a brick through the window to fulfill the "prophecy". The volitional act of Jesus and the fulfillment of the prophecy corresponded together perfectly. Ideally, a prophecy should be fulfilled by somebody who's never heard of the prophecy - a double-blind system.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
quote: I do believe that Jesus deliberately did something to fulfill and confirm the prophecy. I don't think there was anything "phony" about. What it spoke of Him, He began to actually DO. Had He not followed through, then we might consider His action phony. As it stands, He was realistic.
quote: We have examples of BOTH in the Bible. You see, often, just when you think you have God all neatly confined to your box like limitations, He acts in a surprising manner. The stipulation that you are demanding, is ALSO evidenced in Scripture. But we ALSO have instances like man COOPERATING with God for the fulfillment of His plans. Perhaps this disturbs you. But it is quite marvelous that man and God should coordinate together in such a way of mutual operation. Both kinds of fulfillment of prophecy are evidenced in the Bible.We just have to be enlarged in capacity to appreciate God's varied ways of working.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Thank you for the long quotation.
As I said before, I sympathize with your thought, but only so much. My sympathy with your complaint is not without bounds. Sure, some of the "fulfilled prophecies" look like certain words are isolated to make a case. I agree that that is the appearance of some of the passages. And as I also previously said, God gave His people a heads up. He told them that in their self pride and stubburness, He would sometimes deliver truth to them in a kind of pieces of the puzzle manner - Here a little, over there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept. God has His ways. And sometimes He works so that man has nothing left to boast in in himself. He will sometimes cause you to feel like a trusting child. I perfectly understand your problem. But the Bible says that God spoke to us in the prophets in not just one way, but in MANY ways.
"God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets, Has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son ..." (Hebrews 1:1) I would be suspicious if you believe in the Son of God but can brag and boast about your smarts and intelligence. Is your pride still so intact? Is your self reliance still strutting around and boasting? But if God has opened your spiritual eyes and you are left humble - trusting, you may consider that God has really given you something -
"The hungry He has filled with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty." (Luke 1:53) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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