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Author | Topic: Is It Bigoted To Have A Supported Opinion? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Bigotry is all about beliefs. Racists believe that people of other races are inferior. Homophobes believe that God hates fags. Besides, all I am supporting are my beliefs. The topic is about support. I think supporting belief with more belief is like building a house on sand.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: You expect me to form my beliefs from human consensus. Thats where you have it wrong. It is not I who pick and choose.
So if I said you were picking and choosing your biblical "evidence" to support your personal bigoted beliefs - Where would you suggest I have got it wrong?
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: The topic is about support. I think supporting belief with more belief is like building a house on sand. Which "rock" do you suggest we build our support upon?
Edited by Phat, : added link
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
A tangible one. An objective one. One that a disabled black lesbian carpenter can deal with.
Which "rock" do you suggest we build our support upon?
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Pretty sure "watered down messages that have nothing to do with scripture" includes posting pictures of things that are untrue and miscategorize the group of people you claim to belong to. I mean really, break down every one of these into your own version, in your own argument and back it up with evidence.
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
hooah writes: I will, but before I do let me ask a couple of questions. pictures of things that are untrue and miscategorize the group of people you claim to belong to. I mean really, break down every one of these into your own version, in your own argument and back it up with evidence.1) In regards to the term Christian who gets to categorize them? Can non Christians categorize Christians? Can only one club out of the many denominations categorize other clubs? In short, what is the standard that can or should be used from which to properly categorize another group unlike ones own? My argument is that the Word of God is the standard by which to compare. Others would argue that logic, reason, and human wisdom and/or consensus should be the standard.Critics will again say that I pick and choose which scriptures to use to support my argument. in regards to your accusation as to untruth and "miscategorization", I ask you again...according to whose standard?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Sophistry is a very poor foundation for anything. But when do you intend to START supporting your beliefs (whatever they are). The pattern of refusing to make clear arguments continues. Quite frankly it seems clear to me that you don't believe that your position - whatever it is - can be defended. Edited by PaulK, : fix tag Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Unless you are proposing an official body to make such determinations doesn't it come down to individual judgement anyway ? What alternative could you offer ?
quote: Then your position is hopelessly confused, failing to realise that logic reason, and what you call human wisdom must be used to apply any standard you propose, but cannot in themselves define a standard without some basis for doing so. Anyway, what standard do you propose ?
quote: The implication here is that you intend to be dishonest. And that you intend to "justify" that dishonesty" by trying to imply that YOUR opinions on the matter have a more-than-human source as you do so often. When I went to church I was taught that people should look at Christians and wish that they could be that good. I look at what some of the "Christians' here do and I'm glad that I could never be that bad.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
PaulK writes: Quite simply, Jesus Christ. Humans have no capability to judge each others behaviors apart from Christ. even our vaunted logic, reason, and reality is meaningless without Christ.
Unless you are proposing an official body to make such determinations doesn't it come down to individual judgement anyway ? What alternative could you offer ? Then your position is hopelessly confused, failing to realize that logic reason, and what you call human wisdom must be used to apply any standard you propose, but cannot in themselves define a standard without some basis for doing so. Anyway, what standard do you propose ? Belief in Jesus Christ. Only through Gods redemption and redemptive power does global society have any sort of hope to make it. you will see the ever increasing evidence that I am right.
The implication here is that you intend to be dishonest. And that you intend to "justify" that dishonesty" by trying to imply that YOUR opinions on the matter have a more-than-human source as you do so often. I am being as honest as I can. I have no need to try and win arguments simply to validate my ego. I honestly care about each and every one of you.
Phat to Ringo writes:
Which "rock" do you suggest we build our support upon?Ringo writes: And thus I "preach" to build our rock upon Jesus Christ and not upon human wisdom. Apart from Him we can and will do nothing.
A tangible one. An objective one. One that a disabled black lesbian carpenter can deal with. Ringo writes: You are all welcome to support your own arguments with whatever building material that you choose to use. We have free speech in this coffee house. The topic is about support. I think supporting belief with more belief is like building a house on sand. Now...getting back to a request.
Hooah212002 writes: Pretty sure "watered down messages that have nothing to do with scripture" includes posting pictures of things that are untrue and miscategorize the group of people you claim to belong to. I mean really, break down every one of these into your own version, in your own argument and back it up with evidence. So the question and challenge from Mr.Hooah is that the phrases in the picture I posted are essentially untrue, am I right? I need not attempt to defend the accusations on the right...concerning modern day Christians. I see ample evidence that those characterizations are quite true...at least in the church in America. Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with social justice and actions...it has been said in this forum that Christianity is at its best by what you do and not by what you say. Additionally, many of you claim that you also do acts of random kindness and mercy to those less fortunate than you and that you do it with no religious agenda and with no expected heavenly reward. You do it because it is the right thing to do...and for that I applaud you. You are more like the early believers...though you remain unconvinced of the reality of Jesus Christ and I'll not say a word against you. Good Job! Lets examine each statement: Willing To Sell Everything They Had For The Gospel--Most of them didn't have much. This belief lost steam once Constantine made Christianity P.C. but it continued through the monastic order for several hundred years. There were a few notable exceptions...Faussets Bible Dictionary writes: Scriptural Support: Acts 4:34,Matthew 13:46. Keep in mind the audience to whom the scripture is being spoken to. In modern context, the idea is more about what is in the human heart. Don't ever let your possessions keep you from helping someone whom is placed in your path or whom your conscience compels you to help.(I am still working on this one...I was and am greedy and selfish by my sinful nature)
ZACCHAEUS---The Lord had shortly before encountered the rich young ruler, so loveable, yet lacking one thing, the will to part with his earthly treasure and to take the heavenly as his portion. He had said then, "how hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God;" yet to show us that "the things impossible with men are possible with God" (Luke 18:18-27), and that riches are not an insuperable barrier against entrance into heaven, the case of the rich yet saved Zacchaeus follows. Beaten, whipped, murdered,deprived,imprisoned for advance of Gospel--The Apostle Paul was of course imprisoned. Jesus Himself took on the shame that human society by nature had (and still has...just watch the culture of no shame that we embrace now) To be honest with you, though...I don't have a lot of evidence personally for this one. I live in a prosperous country and am left alone. It is my choice to advance the Gospel as I understand it and I also have no proof that doing the right thing without fervent belief is in any way superior. So I concede this point to you critics...for now.
Taught Sound Doctrine,studied to show thyself approved to God. The early believers were careful to preserve sound doctrine. It is my belief that the many Bibles we have today are the result of such preservation...careful study between them shows very little discrepancy in wording, which is resolved through the communion of the Spirit within the believers of today. The problem is when the church attempts consensus with secular society.
Believers Diligent To Learn All Scripture jar always gets on my case asking me whether I've even read the Bible. I am still reading, and am open to other opinions of what the scriptures mean...though I also test the spirits and can tell when someone wishes knowingly or unknowingly to water down a message or to attempt to re-frame it according to cultural consensus. We can discuss this on an individual scripture by scripture basis, though we likely would go on for years.
willing to pick up cross I am still not exactly sure of the symbolism of this quote. Honestly, I would be scared to die...but we all die eventually anyway. I suppose I try and do my best on a daily basis. Many days I fall short and many things that I have said in these forums I later regret having said. I focus on my relationship with Jesus on a daily basis.Oftentimes, this relationship is tested by how I relate to all of you. I wont compromise my argument unless internally compelled, but I try and treat each of you with respect as humans and don't seek to insult or "one up" anybody. The rest of the list builds on what I just said...which gets us to the last one.....
Being Transformed Into New Creation It is my belief that this action is not mere evolution of human wisdom. It is through a daily communion with Jesus Christ and through a daily love of others. Please forgive me if I still snap at you and give you snarly comments....and I will try my best to be polite without compromising my own integrity to myself and to God. Edited by Phat, : re examination of what I said Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I had to look the word up. I try and learn things from you guys when I can. Internet Encyclopedia Of Philosophy-Sophists
quote:Is this the term you meant? Was I being lazy again in quoting an article that I didn't fully understand and that was not my own words?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Then, since Jesus isn't around to provide such judgements your position must be that we should stop using the term altogether. I don't think that that is a very sensible position. The term's there, let's use it.
quote: Then I guess we ought to include the Mormons, and maybe even the Unification Church (Moonies) as Christians. That's pushing it, in my view, possibly too far. But the question raised here is are you referring to "Christian" as a general term or the idea of "True Christians" ? It seems that here you are referring to the general term while earlier you were referring to something far more specific.
quote: Then I guess you need to ask why you have problems being open and honest. Can't you just openly state your position and your arguments for it ? Why not ? It would be the best defence against accusations of bigotry - if those accusations were false. And I don't think that we need to hear your preaching. Surely you should establish yourself as someone worth listening to first? If you want to turn people away form your views you're doing a fine job of it, but I don't think that is your intent.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
I think that dictionary.com is closer to my intent:
sophistry [sof-uh-stree] noun, plural sophistries. 1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning. 2. a false argument; sophism. And I think that your error was in referring to the article at all.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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My argument is that the Word of God is the standard by which to compare. Of course by that you mean your interpretation of the particular brand of god worshiping you choose to follow.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Quite simply, Jesus Christ. Humans have no capability to judge each others behaviors apart from Christ. even our vaunted logic, reason, and reality is meaningless without Christ. Funny, then, that you hate gays since that guy never said a word about them but DID say a lot about not judging and loving your neighbor. Second: don't you see the hypocrisy in you saying this a mere few messages after you post a picture with the sole intent of judging other christians?
I see ample evidence that those characterizations are quite true...at least in the church in America. Yet, you provide none. Then, you go on to use the bible as historical evidence for how "early believers" were treated and acted? Really? You realize we have actual contemporary evidence of that time period, right? And yet again, we have a long ass winded message from Phat where you just state your belief in your imaginary buddy jesus and do nothing to even attempt to support your bigotry. Instead, you write a bunch of empty platitudes that mean nothing. For example:
quote: Odd that the most religious states in America fair the worst, are the poorest and most obese and require the most assistance."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: My argument is that the Word of God is the standard by which to compare. You keep making that claim and then trying to support that claim by taking the "Word of God" out of context and by misrepresenting what it actually says, substituting YOUR interpretation of what is written for what is actually written.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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