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Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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Christianity is unable to prove from the Biblical text of Isaiah 53 that the servant of God, whom the text describes, is a messianic figure. The text does not speak about a king or a ruler, nowhere is spoken about a descendent of David or Jesse, and the word ‘messiah’ is nowhere used in Isaiah 53. Since this is the only text Christianity has to back up their fairy tale of a suffering and dying messiah, they grasp at straws. While I think you make a good argument, I find the argument somewhat irrelevant at least for me. As a non Jew born thousands of years after the events in the Old Testament, I am struggling just a bit to understand why I should care that Jesus was or was not the military leader that some Jews were anticipating. I can accept the usefulness of having the Jews of the day accept that concept. I can even accept that the Luke or whoever was the author of Luke and Acts firmly believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, but isn't that issue pretty much irrelevant for me? I think so. After all, the essence of Christianity is, or at least ought to be Christ's teachings, example, and promises. Jesus was so different from what the Jews were expecting that for them, perhaps every possible tie of Jesus to OT scriptures was important. For me, not so much. Of course carrying around all of the baggage does provide "fundies" with yet another hammer to whack Jews with, in their efforts to, as Ann Coulter has said, "Perfect them". And apparently fundies like to do exactly that. In any event, isn't "failed prophecy" something of an oxymoron? If something did not happen, how could it have been foretold?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Iblis Member (Idle past 3924 days) Posts: 663 Joined: |
As a non Jew born thousands of years after the events in the Old Testament, I am struggling just a bit to understand why I should care that Jesus was or was not the military leader that some Jews were anticipating. Isn't it quite relevant though, in the sense that the messiah who the Jews supposedly expected in the year Nothing, the super-powered militant leader who would destroy the wicked, conquer the world, and set up an omnipotent theocracy with them as the best boys and no fun whatsoever for anyone else, is the exact same god expected to return any minute now by fundamentalist Christians? Isn't it nice to know that Jesus isn't him?
Mat24:24 writes: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Not that this is anything new, of course. There were plenty of "messiahs" at that time, Jew and Christian alike, who tried that and failed miserably.
1Jon2:18 writes: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. The literate fellow, who read that stuff in Isaiah, and set out to be nailed to a pole by Romans, got er done that week.
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3848 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
I am struggling just a bit to understand why I should care that Jesus was or was not the military leader that some Jews were anticipating. I can accept the usefulness of having the Jews of the day accept that concept.
You should care because when you understand how important to the Jews of 32AD it was for Christ to be the saving messiah ben David who would kill the Romans prophesied and free Israel, you understand how they insisted that John was his Elijah. John said "No," he was NOT the Elijah. Jesus said, if they insisted, fine, then let them believe that John was the Elijah.But the evidence shows in hind sight, that Christ was The Elijah: //////////// 1) Both Elijah and Christ raised the dead: 1 Kings 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where .Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2) Both Elijah, who never dies, and Christ were immortal: 2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 3) Both Elijah and Christ. ascended into Heaven before witnesses: 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talkd, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. .12..And Elisha saw it,. Luke 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven 4) Both Elijah and Christ troubled Israel: 1 Kings 18:17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel? Matthew 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.. 5) Both Elijah and Christ were threatened by the authorities with death:1 Kings 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of I.srael have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and .I. .even I only .am .left..; and they seek my life, to take it away John 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death 6) Both Elijah and Christ.... were hunted by the Jewish authorities:1 Kings 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away John 7:25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? 7) Both Elijah and Christ.... hid in a cave/tomb: 1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah? Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth... 8) Both Elijah and Christ pondered in the wilderness 40 days and forty nights:.... 1 Kings 19:8 And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 9) Both Elijah and Christ. walked on across the water2 Kings 2:8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground Matthew 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea 10) Both Elijah and Christ let a person follow them across the water: 2 Kings 2:14.. And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over Matthew 14:29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. 11) Both Elijah and Christ.... wrote only one thing, a letter, to people on Earth AFTER they had ascended: 2 Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from ..Elijah.. the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah, Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 12) Both Elijah and Christ appointed a successor, Elisha, by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ: 2 Kings 2:9.. And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And ..Elisha.. said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me Matthew 16:18.. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this .rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 13) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor the power to raise the dead: 2 Kings 8:5.. And it came to pass, as he was telling the king how he had restored a dead body to life, that, behold, the woman, whose son he had restored to life, cried to the king for her house and for her land. And Gehazi said, My lord, O king, this is the woman, and this is her son, whom ..Elisha.. restored to life.Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and ..prayed..; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up 14) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor the power to heal: 2 Kings 5:10.. And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk 15) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other:1 Kings 19:19.. So he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth: and Elijah passed by him, and cast his mantle upon him. Matthew 16:19.. And I will give unto thee the keys.of the kingdom.. of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven 16) Both Elijah and Christ. asked that the this "cup" be taken from them: 1Kings 19:4 .But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die (because he was afraid of what was coming from Jezebel: [1Kings 19:3]), and said, "It is enough (they seek my life, to take it away: [1Kings 19:10]); now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, (because he began to show grief and distress of mind and was deeply depressed: [Matt 26:37]), let this cup pass from me (It is enough: [1Kings 19:4]): nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. 17) Both Elijah and Christ are said to have had miraculous births:Jewish Encyclopedia: Three different theories regarding Elijah's origin are presented in the Haggadah: Mention must be made of a statement which, though found only in the later cabalistic literature (Yal?u? Reubeni, Bereshit, 9a, ed. Amsterdam), seems nevertheless to be very old (see Epiphanius, l.c.), and according to which Elijah was an angel in human form, so that he had neither parents nor offspring. See also Melchizedek. Matthew1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 18) Both Elijah and Christ destroyed pagan worshippers and priests. Elijah destroyed the priests of Baal; Christ, the Pantheon of Rome, 380AD: IKi 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there. History: Universal Christianity in 380AD:Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years (54AD -1054AD) 19) Both Elijah and Christ were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.2 Kings 2:2.. I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel 2 Kings 2:4.. I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho 2 Kings 2:6.. I will not leave thee. And they two went on John 21:17.. He saith unto him the third time,... "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "Lovest thou me?" 20) Both Elijah and Christ. condemned a Jezebel: 2 Kings 9:36 Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel: Rev 2:20 ..Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.. 21) Both Elijah and Christ re-dedicated the Israelite people to God by raising up a new altar or temple: 1 Ki 18:30.. And ..Elijah.. said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name: John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. 22) Both Elijah and Christ chose one man upon which to build his following:2 Kings 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and ..upon.. this ..rock.. I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 23) Both Elijah and Christ were subject of a three day 'search' for their presence: 2 Kings 2:1 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send.They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. Luke 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions./////
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Iblis Member (Idle past 3924 days) Posts: 663 Joined:
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Excellent work, Holmes!
You didn't take the trouble to compose that yourself, did you? Hope not. Meanwhile, back in the real world, as this is an evolution thingie, I will document a couple of ancestor species for this kludge.
ELVIS-JESUS SIMILARITIES Jesus said: Love thy neighbor.(Matthew 22:39) Elvis said: Don’t be cruel. (RCA, 1956) Jesus is the Lord’s shepherd.Elvis dated Cybill Shepherd. Jesus was part of the Trinity.Elvis’ first band was a trio. Jesus walked on water.(Matthew 14:25) Elvis surfed. (Blue Hawaii, Paramount, 1965) Jesus’ entourage, the Apostles, had 12 members.Elvis’ entourage, the Memphis Mafia, had 12 members. Jesus was resurrected.Elvis had the famous 1968 Comeback TV special. Jesus said, If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink.(John 7:37) Elvis said, Drinks on me! (Jailhouse Rock, MGM, 1957) Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights.Elvis had irregular eating habits. (e.g. 5 banana splits for breakfast.) Jesus is a Capricorn. (December 25)Elvis is a Capricorn. (January 8) Matthew was one of Jesus’ many biographers.(The Gospel According to Matthew) Neil Matthews was one of Elvis’ many biographers. (Elvis: A Golden Tribute) Jesus’ countenance was like lightning and his raiment white as snow.(Matthew 28:3) Elvis wore snow-white jumpsuits with lightning bolts. Jesus lived in state of grace in a Near Eastern land.Elvis lived in Graceland in a nearly eastern state. Mary, an important woman in Jesus’ life, had an Immaculate Conception.Priscilla, an important woman in Elvis’ life, went to Immaculate Conception High School. Jesus was first and foremost the Son of God.Elvis first recorded with Sun Studios... which today are still considered to be his foremost recordings. Jesus was the lamb of God.Elvis had mutton chop sideburns. Jesus’ Father is everywhere.Elvis’ father was a drifter and moved around quite a bit. Jesus was a carpenter.Elvis’ favorite high school class was woodshop. Jesus wore a crown of thorns.Elvis wore Royal Crown hair styler. Jesus H. Christ has 12 letters.Elvis Presley has 12 letters. No one knows what the H in Jesus H. Christ stood for.No one was really sure if Elvis’ middle name was Aron or Aaron. Jesus is often depicted in pictures with a halo that looks like a gold plate.Elvis’ face is often depicted on a plate with gold trim and sold through TV. Jesus said: Man shall not live by bread alone.Elvis liked his sandwiches with peanut butter and bananas. and a little further back, of course Are These 'Coincidences' Linking Lincoln to Kennedy Real? | Snopes.com "False", btw.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
with them as the best boys and no fun whatsoever for anyone else, is the exact same god expected to return any minute now by fundamentalist Christians? Isn't it nice to know that Jesus isn't him? Wow. That's quite convoluted. I can honestly say that I've never held such a thought. But I guess that it wouldn't be the first thing fundies were ever wrong about. I take more pleasure in noting that Jesus is pretty far left of the average stone-casting fundy. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Eliyahu Member (Idle past 2288 days) Posts: 288 From: Judah Joined: |
While I think you make a good argument, I find the argument somewhat irrelevant at least for me. As a non Jew born thousands of years after the events in the Old Testament, I am struggling just a bit to understand why I should care that Jesus was or was not the military leader that some Jews were anticipating. I can accept the usefulness of having the Jews of the day accept that concept. I can even accept that the Luke or whoever was the author of Luke and Acts firmly believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, but isn't that issue pretty much irrelevant for me? I think so. After all, the essence of Christianity is, or at least ought to be Christ's teachings, example, and promises. Jesus was so different from what the Jews were expecting that for them, perhaps every possible tie of Jesus to OT scriptures was important. For me, not so much. Bs'd It is of course very important to know that Christianity is a false religion, so that you will not be led into idolatry and paganism by it, all the mean while thinking that you are serving God. And of course, for non-Jews the seven Noachide commandments are binding, and one of 'm forbids idolatry, therefore it is very important to know that it is forbidden to worship a human being. . . In the service of Y-H-W-H, Eliyahu, light unto the nations "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4 "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5 . .
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You are of course free to believe what you want. Too many people "prove" these things intellectually yet fail at the heart evidence.
Plus you have to ask yourself what the fruit of your argument is. You are leading people away from a relationship with the One God into religious intellectualism...devoid of any power and fatal to its adherents. I will pray for you, of course. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but quite simply you people are WRONG. I know Jesus Christ. I have seen enough evidence to conclude that He is alive in our hearts. I wont get into an intellectual argument with any of you because quite honestly I will likely lose...but I cant make you see with your hearts, so all I can do is pray for you.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Not yet.
Has Jesus come as the Warrior King?
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Eliyahu Member (Idle past 2288 days) Posts: 288 From: Judah Joined: |
You are of course free to believe what you want. Too many people "prove" these things intellectually yet fail at the heart evidence. Plus you have to ask yourself what the fruit of your argument is. You are leading people away from a relationship with the One God Bs'd I'm not leading people away from the one God, I'm leading people away from idolatry. I'm leading them toward the one and only God Y-H-W-H who is one.
I know Jesus Christ. I have seen enough evidence to conclude that He is alive in our hearts. I wont get into an intellectual argument with any of you because quite honestly I will likely lose...but I cant make you see with your hearts, so all I can do is pray for you. So instead of using your God given brain, you switch it off and rely on your emotions. Do you do that often, when faced with a crucial decision in life, relying on your emotions? When you change jobs, buy a house, or even a second hand car, do you then switch off you brain and rely on your emotions? Emotions are a very bad counsellor. Use your brain, that's why God gave it to you. . . In the service of Y-H-W-H, Eliyahu, light unto the nations "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4 "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5 . .
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3848 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
I'm not leading people away from the one God, I'm leading people away from idolatry.
How do you see this as idolatry?
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3848 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined: |
How can you avoid Israel being the messiah when you read this verse in Isa 53: Isa. 53:5 But, (Israel), he was wounded (in Diaspora) for our (political, religious, cultural, and economic) transgressions, he, (Israel), was bruised (in anti-Semitism) for our (political, cultural, religious, and economic) iniquities (of centuries past): the chastisement of our peace (in the Middle East) was upon him, (Israel, of 1948); and with his, (Israel's), stripes, (since 1948), we are (and shall be) healed.
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kofh2u Member (Idle past 3848 days) Posts: 1162 From: phila., PA Joined:
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You are of course free to believe what you want. Too many people "prove" these things intellectually yet fail at the heart evidence. Plus you have to ask yourself what the fruit of your argument is. You are leading people away from a relationship with the One God into religious intellectualism...devoid of any power and fatal to its adherents. I will pray for you, of course. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but quite simply you people are WRONG. I know Jesus Christ. I have seen enough evidence to conclude that He is alive in our hearts. I wont get into an intellectual argument with any of you because quite honestly I will likely lose...but I cant make you see with your hearts, so all I can do is pray for you.
You are right in that most people can just know Jesus in what you call their heart. The OT writers used that same word, Leb, i.e.; heart, to separate the idea from the Intellect, or nesphesh in the Hebrew.But both words refer to the mind, and its use of different facilities. Some here are unable to perceive in both capacities because we tend genetically to be dominated by one or the other.
For those people who an not relate to what you say, I would compare the idea of Conscience to them. People who recognize and listen to their Conscience may not be able to intellectually argue for the existence of human Conscience, but they do recognize Conscience in themselves and can see it at work in others.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
How can you avoid Israel being the messiah when you read this verse in Isa 53:
Isa. 53:5 But, (Israel), he was wounded (in Diaspora) for our (political, religious, cultural, and economic) transgressions, he, (Israel), was bruised (in anti-Semitism) for our (political, cultural, religious, and economic) iniquities (of centuries past): the chastisement of our peace (in the Middle East) was upon him, (Israel, of 1948); and with his, (Israel's), stripes, (since 1948), we are (and shall be) healed. What a bunch of nonsense. How can it possibly be that Israel was wounded for the transgressions of others? He was wounded FOR our transgressions, not BY our transgressions. And how on earth did the formation of the state of Israel in 1948 bring anybody peace? Israel is always being punished by God for their own transgressions as are all of us. Nothing in scripture allows the idea of THEIR taking OUR punishments upon themselves. For one thing sinful humanity cannot do that. The lamb of sacrifice must be unblemished, meaning sinless, and only Jesus fits that description. Are we SAVED by the sufferings endured by Israel? Show me where you get such a nonsensical idea besides your imposing it on the text of Isaiah 53. No, that text is about the Messiah then to come, now known as Jesus:
Isa. 53:5 But, he (Jesus) was wounded (by Pilate's soldiers) for our {God's own people Israel and all the rest of us) transgressions (sins against God of every kind defined in scripture), he (Jesus) was bruised (by the crucifixion) for our iniquities (sins against God of every kind defined in scripture): the chastisement of our peace (our peace with God knowing our sins are forgiven) was upon him, (he bore our sins in his own body, suffered and died for them); and with his, (Jesus'), stripes, (wielded by the Sanhedrin and the Roman soldiers), we are (and shall be) healed. Israel has always suffered for their own sins as have all of us. They can be saved from the consequences of their sins for eternity thanks to the sacrifice of Christ, if they wish to be, just as we all can. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Eliyahu Member (Idle past 2288 days) Posts: 288 From: Judah Joined:
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Bs'd
When we fill in the Jewish people in this text,: "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed." we also have to ask: who is the 'our' and the 'we'? Here is the prophet Isaiah speaking as a part of the Jewish people. So also the 'we' points to the Jewish people. Now in stead of the metaphor, 'the servant', and the "we", let's fill in the Jewish people and see what we get: But [the Jewish people] were wounded for the transgressions of [the Jewish people], [the Jewish people] were bruised for the iniquities of [the Jewish people], the chastisement of the peace of [the Jewish people] was upon [the Jewish people], and with the stripes of [the Jewish people] [the Jewish people] are healed. Here we see that the Jewish people were punished for the sins of the Jewish people, just like in Isaiah 1:4-9. Also there are the Jewish people punished for the rebellious sins of the Jewish people. And that is what happens, when we sin we get punished, and through the punishment the sin is erased. This is a much more normal view upon sin and punishment than to think that when we sin God gets or was punished for it by being nailed to a cross. And those are the hard facts; everybody has to take his own responsibility, you cannot shove it of unto God or anybody else. . . In the service of Y-H-W-H, Eliyahu, light unto the nations "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4 "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5 . .
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So then Jesus is still a failed Messiah.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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