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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 54 of 716 (703693)
07-27-2013 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 1:47 AM


Right,... Jersus merely fulfilled the prophecies for the messiah ben Joseph:
"The Christian messiah did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. "
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5849-eschatology
The Messiah will furthermore win the heathen by the spirit of wisdom and righteousness which rests upon him (Sibyllines, iii. 780; Test. Patr., Levi, 18; Judah, 24; Targ. Yer. to Gen. xlix. 12 and Isa. xli. 1).
He will teach the nations the Noachian laws of humanity and make all men disciples of the Lord (Midr. Teh. xxi.).
The wonders of the time of Moses will be repeated on a larger scale in the time of the Messiah (Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 8, after Micah vii. 15; comp. Hosea ii. 17; Targ.; Tan., Bo, ed. Buber, 6).
What Moses, the first redeemer, did is typical of what the Messiah as the last redeemer will do (Eccl. R. i. 9). The redemption will be in the same month of Nisan, (at the Passover seders), and in the same night (Mek., Bo, 14); the same pillar of cloud will lead Israel (Philo, "De Execrationibus," 8; Targ. Yer. to Isa. xxxv. 10):
the same plagues will be sent upon Israel's foes (Tan., Wa'era, ed. Buber, 15; Bo, 6, 19; Midr. Wayosha'; Jellinek, "B. H." i. 45);
the redeemer will ride on an "donkey" (Zech. ix. 9; comp. Ex. iv. 20);
manna, (transubstantiation?) will again be sent down from heaven (Ps. lxxii. 16; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 24; Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxix. 8);
and water rise from beneath by miraculous power (Joel iv. [A. V. iii.] 18; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 15 et seq.; Eccl. R. i. 9).
Like Moses, the Messiah will disappear for 40 days after his appearance (Pesiḥ. R. 15; Pesiḥ. v. 49b, after Hosea v. 15).
The same number of people will be redeemed (Sanh. 111a)
and the Song of Moses be replaced by another song , (the New Testament)(Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 1; Rev. xv. 3).
But, like Moses, the Messiah will die (II Esd. l.c.); the opinion that the Messiah will not taste death (Midr. Teh. lxxii. 17) seems to be of later origin, and will be discussed in connection with the account of the Messiah from the tribe of Joseph or Ephraim (see below).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 07-25-2013 1:47 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 55 of 716 (703694)
07-27-2013 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Eliyahu
07-27-2013 1:25 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
[q]Daniel 9 does not speak about THE messiah.
It speaks about TWO (2) other messiahs.
For the finer details look here: Daniel9 - MountZion
[/q]
Yep.
Both Christ and Israel are the sons of God.
The first prophecy that illustrates these two suffering messiahs can be gleaned for Gen 22:
Gen. 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him, (an uncastrated male sheep), a ram, (also, figuratively, [ayil: the political chiefs]; symbolic of the European Jewish rabbi), caught in a thicket (of the Nazi persecution), by his horns, (or, his power: [symbolic Dictionary]):
and Abraham, (in analogy to God), went and took, (in place of the lamb of his only son, Isaac), the ram, (the Jewish people and leadership in Europe of the 20th century to come), and offered him, (as a Burnt Offering, the sin offering, the Jewish people themselves: [Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, ‘Israel is My son, my first born.’]), up (in holocaust) for a burnt offering (in the crematoriums of WWII, the Burnt Offering of Israel, the chosen son of God in the stead of (Isaac), his (only) son, (in analogy, as was Christ offered for their salvation).
Exodus 4:22
Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,
Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt ([nacah: try, prove]; use to show) Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am, (a parody of the name of God, himself, YHVH; [Exodus 3:14]).
Gen. 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, (as I shall take my own), thine only son, (as shall I take my only son), Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah, (a hill, like Golgotha, the place of the Skull, in Palestinia); and offer him there, (symbolically transferring guilt and sin to him; [Luke 24:47]), for a burnt offering, (a sin offering), upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen. 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his asssss, (as would Jesus ride into Jerusalem to be crucified: [John 12:14]) and took two ([Matt 27:38]) of his young men, (as witnesses, as would Jesus take Mary and John to witness the Cross), clave the wood, (as if the pieces of the cross of Isaac's crucifixion), for the burnt offering, (the Jewish ritual for the transferal of sin; [Luke 24:47]), and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
from the Talmud:
Rabbi Joshua ben Levi said: "It is written in Zechariah (9:9) 'Behold thy king cometh unto thee...lowly riding upon an assss'; while Daniel (7:13} says: 'Behold there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto the Son of man."
If Israel were worthy, 'with the clouds of heaven'; if they were not worthy, lowly, and riding upon an ass. Sanhedrin, 98a
Gen. 22:4 Then, (as example to the years of the ministry of Jesus yet to come), on the third "day," (the third yom, or three durations of time: [Luke 24:46]), Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off, (in the future).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 1:25 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 4:36 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 57 of 716 (703705)
07-27-2013 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Eliyahu
07-27-2013 4:36 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Yes,...
I agree with you that Isa 53 refers to Israel.
It also refers to Jesus.
Gen 22 explains that an only son would be a young lamb, chosen for crucifixion, but in the end, reprieved.
Then, the same thing would happen afterwards to Israel, the mature sheep.
We see in Revelation the prediction repeated again after 32AD:
Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah, the two candlestick witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).
Rev. 11:8 And, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah), their dead bodies shall lie in the street (of Nazi Paganism) of the great city (which is the tenth horn of Western Civilization), which spiritually (in its philosophical outlook) is called Sodom, (i.e.; a place practicing pagan sexual license and libidinal excess) and (that ancient place of Jew trust in the shadow of) Egypt, (the time of their confusion: [Isa. 30:2-3]: Egypt, the land of both their beloved Joseph and also, their slavery), where, (in their blindness of scriptural truth) also our Lord was crucified (among them in 32 AD).
Rev. 11:9 And they of the (the gentile) people and kindreds and tongues (in the lands of the Jewish dispersion, from the time of the beginning of the construction of the abomination of the Dome of the Rock in 688AD until 1948, i.e., 1260 years) among them, (during the Diaspora), and nations (both) shall see their dead bodies (in Concentration Camps) three days (of years, i.e.; 1260) and an half, (1942-1945), and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves (but disposed of in the Crematoriums).
Rev. 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth, (in Nazi Western Europe), shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send (supposed Christian seasonal) gifts one to another; because these two prophets, (the holy people of the book), tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev. 11:11 And after (the Holocaust), three and an half days (of years), the Spirit of life from God entered into them, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah), and they stood upon their feet (in the land Promised); and great fear fell upon them (in Islam) which saw them, (the prophecy of the Fig Tree, blooming, Hosea 9:10, was fulfilled: [Matt 24:32].
Rev. 11:12 And (the survivors), they (collectively) heard (the commands of Zionism), a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither (to the prophecy fulfilled, where all Nations can see the Jew returned to the Holy Land once again.).
And they ascended up to heaven (by complying with the voice, gathering themselves together in this Zionism) in a cloud (of peoples from Western Europe and all the world); and their enemies (especially in Palestinia) beheld them.
Rev. 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, (i.e.; Israeli Statehood), and the tenth part of the city, (that first small piece of the Promised Land), fell (to the returning Jews), and in the earthquake (of their in-gathering) were slain of (Muslim) men, seven thousand:
and the remnant
(Islamic armies) were affrighted, and (all the Judaeo-Christian world) gave glory to the God of heaven (that prophecy of Daniel, 12:11-12, had been fulfilled as Christ had acknowledged and opposed the Maccabean interpretations).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 4:36 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Eliyahu, posted 07-28-2013 12:46 AM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 59 of 716 (703712)
07-28-2013 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Eliyahu
07-28-2013 12:46 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Well.... be that as it may, still it in no way proofs that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
How can we ignore that messiah ben joseph traditionally was understood to be the suffering messiah?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Eliyahu, posted 07-28-2013 12:46 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Eliyahu, posted 07-28-2013 12:21 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 63 of 716 (703721)
07-28-2013 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by NoNukes
07-28-2013 1:17 PM


Re: who was Jesus...
I am struggling just a bit to understand why I should care that Jesus was or was not the military leader that some Jews were anticipating. I can accept the usefulness of having the Jews of the day accept that concept.
You should care because when you understand how important to the Jews of 32AD it was for Christ to be the saving messiah ben David who would kill the Romans prophesied and free Israel, you understand how they insisted that John was his Elijah.
John said "No," he was NOT the Elijah.
Jesus said, if they insisted, fine, then let them believe that John was the Elijah.
But the evidence shows in hind sight, that Christ was The Elijah:
////////////
1) Both Elijah and Christ raised the dead:
1 Kings 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where .Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2) Both Elijah, who never dies, and Christ were immortal:
2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal
John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
3) Both Elijah and Christ. ascended into Heaven before witnesses:
2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talkd, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. .
12..And Elisha saw it,.
Luke 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven
4) Both Elijah and Christ troubled Israel:
1 Kings 18:17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?
Matthew 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born..
5) Both Elijah and Christ were threatened by the authorities with death:

1 Kings 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of I.srael have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and .I. .even I only .am .left..; and they seek my life, to take it away
John 11:53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death
6) Both Elijah and Christ.... were hunted by the Jewish authorities:
1 Kings 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away
John 7:25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill?
7) Both Elijah and Christ.... hid in a cave/tomb:
1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth...
8) Both Elijah and Christ pondered in the wilderness 40 days and forty nights:....
1 Kings 19:8 And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God
Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
9) Both Elijah and Christ. walked on across the water
2 Kings 2:8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground
Matthew 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea
10) Both Elijah and Christ let a person follow them across the water:
2 Kings 2:14.. And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over
Matthew 14:29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.
11) Both Elijah and Christ.... wrote only one thing, a letter, to people on Earth AFTER they had ascended:
2 Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from ..Elijah.. the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
12) Both Elijah and Christ appointed a successor, Elisha, by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ:
2 Kings 2:9.. And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And ..Elisha.. said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me
Matthew 16:18.. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this .rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
13) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor the power to raise the dead:
2 Kings 8:5.. And it came to pass, as he was telling the king how he had restored a dead body to life, that, behold, the woman, whose son he had restored to life, cried to the king for her house and for her land. And Gehazi said, My lord, O king, this is the woman, and this is her son, whom ..Elisha.. restored to life.
Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and ..prayed..; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up
14) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor the power to heal:
2 Kings 5:10.. And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean
Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk
15) Both Elijah and Christ gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other:
1 Kings 19:19.. So he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth: and Elijah passed by him, and cast his mantle upon him.
Matthew 16:19.. And I will give unto thee the keys.of the kingdom.. of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven
16) Both Elijah and Christ. asked that the this "cup" be taken from them:
1Kings 19:4 .But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die (because he was afraid of what was coming from Jezebel: [1Kings 19:3]), and said, "It is enough (they seek my life, to take it away: [1Kings 19:10]); now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers."
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, (because he began to show grief and distress of mind and was deeply depressed: [Matt 26:37]), let this cup pass from me (It is enough: [1Kings 19:4]): nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
17) Both Elijah and Christ are said to have had miraculous births:

Jewish Encyclopedia:
Three different theories regarding Elijah's origin are presented in the Haggadah: Mention must be made of a statement which, though found only in the later cabalistic literature (Yal?u? Reubeni, Bereshit, 9a, ed. Amsterdam), seems nevertheless to be very old (see Epiphanius, l.c.), and according to which Elijah was an angel in human form, so that he had neither parents nor offspring.
See also Melchizedek.
Matthew1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
18) Both Elijah and Christ destroyed pagan worshippers and priests. Elijah destroyed the priests of Baal; Christ, the Pantheon of Rome, 380AD:
IKi 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
History: Universal Christianity in 380AD:
Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years (54AD -1054AD)
19) Both Elijah and Christ were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.
2 Kings 2:2.. I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel
2 Kings 2:4.. I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho
2 Kings 2:6.. I will not leave thee. And they two went on
John 21:17.. He saith unto him the third time,... "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "Lovest thou me?"
20) Both Elijah and Christ. condemned a Jezebel:
2 Kings 9:36 Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:
Rev 2:20 ..Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds..
21) Both Elijah and Christ re-dedicated the Israelite people to God by raising up a new altar or temple:
1 Ki 18:30.. And ..Elijah.. said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.
22) Both Elijah and Christ chose one man upon which to build his following:

2 Kings 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and ..upon.. this ..rock.. I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
23) Both Elijah and Christ were subject of a three day 'search' for their presence:
2 Kings 2:1 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send.
They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not.
Luke 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
/////

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2013 1:17 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Iblis, posted 07-28-2013 10:17 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 70 of 716 (703742)
07-29-2013 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 3:32 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
I'm not leading people away from the one God, I'm leading people away from idolatry.
How do you see this as idolatry?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 3:32 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 71 of 716 (703743)
07-29-2013 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Eliyahu
07-28-2013 12:46 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
How can you avoid Israel being the messiah when you read this verse in Isa 53:
Isa. 53:5 But, (Israel), he was wounded (in Diaspora) for our (political, religious, cultural, and economic) transgressions, he, (Israel), was bruised (in anti-Semitism) for our (political, cultural, religious, and economic) iniquities (of centuries past): the chastisement of our peace (in the Middle East) was upon him, (Israel, of 1948); and with his, (Israel's), stripes, (since 1948), we are (and shall be) healed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Eliyahu, posted 07-28-2013 12:46 AM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 07-29-2013 7:17 AM kofh2u has replied
 Message 78 by ramoss, posted 07-29-2013 3:52 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


(1)
Message 72 of 716 (703744)
07-29-2013 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
07-29-2013 1:57 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
You are of course free to believe what you want. Too many people "prove" these things intellectually yet fail at the heart evidence.
Plus you have to ask yourself what the fruit of your argument is. You are leading people away from a relationship with the One God into religious intellectualism...devoid of any power and fatal to its adherents. I will pray for you, of course. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but quite simply you people are WRONG.
I know Jesus Christ. I have seen enough evidence to conclude that He is alive in our hearts. I wont get into an intellectual argument with any of you because quite honestly I will likely lose...but I cant make you see with your hearts, so all I can do is pray for you.
You are right in that most people can just know Jesus in what you call their heart.
The OT writers used that same word, Leb, i.e.; heart, to separate the idea from the Intellect, or nesphesh in the Hebrew.
But both words refer to the mind, and its use of different facilities.
Some here are unable to perceive in both capacities because we tend genetically to be dominated by one or the other.
For those people who an not relate to what you say, I would compare the idea of Conscience to them.
People who recognize and listen to their Conscience may not be able to intellectually argue for the existence of human Conscience, but they do recognize Conscience in themselves and can see it at work in others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-29-2013 1:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 79 of 716 (703807)
07-29-2013 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ramoss
07-29-2013 3:52 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, this is the problem. Your 'commentary' is not in the text.. you are chaning the meaning for your prejudices.. and you are pushing events on it that are just plain crazy.
?
How is what I understand from reading scripture any more or less subjective than what you might say a passage means?
It seems clear once one accepts that Israel is the Suffering Servant that we examine the historical suffering which is on the record.
The culmination of the Holocaust, just before all Jewish flesh might have become extinct if that event had not ended with a remnant that became Israel seems to underscore the messianic nature of the willing walk into the crematoriums.
Isa 53 surely parallels the history of Israel which in 1948 culimated in the promise of Isa 52:
52 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
3 For thus saith the Lord, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ramoss, posted 07-29-2013 3:52 PM ramoss has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 80 of 716 (703808)
07-29-2013 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Iblis
07-28-2013 10:17 PM


Re: who was Jesus...
Excellent work, Holmes!
You didn't take the trouble to compose that yourself, did you?
Compose 1Kings and the Gospel story?
I merely compared the first visit of Elijah in 800 BC to the evidence that he apparently returned in 32AD unless he was an imposter who just did the same things again.
He also ritualized the Eucharist wherein he forever after answered the long debated question of whether the 5th Cup of wine set out for Elijah ever Passover ought be poured out or consumed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Iblis, posted 07-28-2013 10:17 PM Iblis has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 81 of 716 (703810)
07-29-2013 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
07-29-2013 2:05 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
jar writes:
Has Jesus come as the Warrior King?
Not yet.
What about the war against mythological Gods in the Gentile culture of Greece and Rome???
Rev. 6:12 And I beheld, (in the days of Theodocius, who established the Holy Roman, Catholic, Apostolic Church), when he, (the Lamb of the tribe of Judah, the off-spring of the root of David;[Rev 5:5]), had opened the sixth seal (of scripture), and, lo, there was a great (sociological) earthquaqe (of institutionalized religious change); and the Sun (Signs of Astrology) became (as) black as (the) sackcloth of (a nun's) hair, and the moon became as blood (of Christ, to determine the very day of the Christian Passover).
Rev. 6:13 And the stars' (i.e.; the twelve constellations of Sun Signs) of heaven fell (from popular grace) unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, (ruined), when she is (destructively) shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev. 6:14 And (Astrology) departed (from popular practice) as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every (Pagan religion and secret society) were moved out of their places.
Rev. 6:15 And (1) the kings of the earth, (POLITICIANS), and (2) the great men, (STATESMEN), and (3) the rich men, (ECONOMIC BARONS), and (4) the chief captains, (PRIESTHOODS), and (5) the mighty men, (MILITARY LEADERS), and (6) every bondman, (CRAFTSMAN), and (7) every free man, (PEASANT), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks (of the pagan temples);
Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains (of the previous social institutions) and rocks (of cultural norms), Fall on us, (help!), and hide us from the face (of Papal judgment) of Universal Catholicism), him that sitteth on the throne (Theodocius, who established Christian Rome) and from the (words of) wrath of the lamb, (the Word of the New Testament):
Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath, (the one thousand year reign predicted), is come; and who, (what other God or religion), shall be able to stand (during these Dark Ages)?
Note, Catholic Encyclopedia:
With the overthrow of the old Roman Empire and the victory of
Christianity, astrology lost its importance in the centers of Christian civilization in the West. The last known astrologer of the old world was Johannes Laurentius (sometimes called Lydus) of Philadelphia in Lydia, who lived A.D. 490-565.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 4:47 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 83 of 716 (703817)
07-29-2013 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
07-29-2013 4:47 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
And to the best of my knowledge nothing in Revelation has ever happened.
Plus, all the additional crap you add in is just plain silly.
True, a whole large body of people read prophecies and yet fail to their knowledge compare the history which has transpired against the verses right within the context, word and phrase by phrase.
To them, the bracketed Historical explanations, right inside the passages themselves, is just crap that contradicts their own private interpretations handed down for centuries before the events actually were fulfilled.
To them, they are blind to the correspondences and deaf to the reports of events already taken place.
The are still generally claiming that a 1000 year reign of Jesus one "god" over a previous whole Roman world full of Mythology never took place:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them, (i.e.; Christianity, as mandated by Emperor Theo I, was the ONLY legal religion in the Empire, after 380AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism): and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches or thinking) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the (one) word of God, (Truth), and which had not worshipped (by participation in the paganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (that was Roman Culture, including the economic system which had been based upon selfish self-interest), neither his image (on his coinage), neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands (those monks living in moneyless monastic environments);
and they, (the saints/apostles), lived (as angels in the minds of the Christians who have followed since the appearance of the Gospels in 54AD, i.e., those beheaded saints, in the memories of the congregations who worshipped in churches built upon the bones of their remains)...
.... and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).
What we saw in the Fall of Rome as Christianity tore down the whole ancient Institution of Religion over all of Europe was the Temple of the New Jerusalem rise up, like a Sukkah, over all the known world as Jesus had predicted:
Zech. 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened, (the New Testament i.e.; the holy comforter), to the house of David,(i.e.; Christianity), and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem,(those who say they are Jews but are not: [Rev 3:9]), for sin and for uncleanness.
Zech. 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, (380 AD, when Emperor Theodosius I enacted a law establishing Catholic Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire and ordering others to be called heretics), saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and (Paganism) shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets, (especially of Astrology), and the unclean spirit(of Libidinal sexual excesses) to pass out of the land.

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 Message 82 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 4:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 8:13 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 84 of 716 (703818)
07-29-2013 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
07-29-2013 7:17 AM


Re: Isaiah 53 is about Jesus
Isa. 53:5 But, (Israel), he was wounded (in Diaspora) for our (political, religious, cultural, and economic) transgressions, he, (Israel), was bruised (in anti-Semitism) for our (political, cultural, religious, and economic) iniquities (of centuries past): the chastisement of our peace (in the Middle East) was upon him, (Israel, of 1948); and with his, (Israel's), stripes, (since 1948), we are (and shall be) healed.
What a bunch of nonsense. How can it possibly be that Israel was wounded for the transgressions of others? He was wounded FOR our transgressions, not BY our transgressions.
The "we" in the passage refers to "we Jews of the Diaspora," who transgressed culturally, religiously, economically, and politically, throughout the centuries as attested to be the Old testament again and again.
Isa. 53:5 But (Israel, the Nation and Country), he, was wounded (in Diaspora) for our (i.e., we Jews of the Diaspora for our political, religious, cultural, and economic) transgressions, he, (Israel), was bruised (in anti-Semitism) for our (we Jews of the Diaspora for our political, cultural, religious, and economic) iniquities (of centuries past): the chastisement of our peace (we Jews now in the Middle East) was upon him, (Israel, of pre-1948); and with his, (Israel's), stripes, (afer 1948), we are (and shall be) healed.

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 Message 73 by Faith, posted 07-29-2013 7:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 85 of 716 (703819)
07-29-2013 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 8:22 AM


Re: Isaiah 53 is about Jesus
When we fill in the Jewish people in this text,: "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed." we also have to ask: who is the 'our' and the 'we'? Here is the prophet Isaiah speaking as a part of the Jewish people. So also the 'we' points to the Jewish people. Now in stead of the metaphor, 'the servant', and the "we", let's fill in the Jewish people and see what we get: But [the Jewish people] were wounded for the transgressions of [the Jewish people], [the Jewish people] were bruised for the iniquities of [the Jewish people], the chastisement of the peace of [the Jewish people] was upon [the Jewish people], and with the stripes of [the Jewish people] [the Jewish people] are healed.
Exactly...
But, the salvation of the remnant of the Jews from the Holocaust and the return of the Jews of the diaspora to the nation of Israel was due totally to the conversion of Europe to a Christianity which supported that end and new beginning.
Hence, when we read Isa 53 from the point of Jew of a particular suffering servant, we see it also refers us to Jesus, the messiah ben Joseph.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 8:22 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3929 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 87 of 716 (703844)
07-30-2013 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
07-29-2013 8:13 PM


Re: kofh2u posts are just bullshit trolling
And so you add more bullshit and nonsense.
Some people will always say they disagree.
But clearly Isa 53 fits well with defining the "we" and "our" as the wayward Jews while that singular generation of the Holocaust was the suffering Israel that so affected the world Conscious of Christianity that they were supported in establishing the State of Israel.
Consider the whole Chapter 53:
Isa. 53:1 Who, (but the Christians), hath believed (i.e.; the Jewish prophets over the ages), our report (in the Bible)? and to whom (if not the gentile) is the (Christian) arm of the LORD, (Yahweh), revealed (to the non-Jew)?
Isa. 53:2 For (the State of Israel), he shall grow up before him, (these Christian Nations to come), as a tender plant (in 1948 AD), and as a root (from the past) out of a dry (and barren Holy) ground: (this new State), he hath no (political) form nor comeliness (of economic might); and when we, (the homeless Jews of 1945), shall see him, (the State of Israel), there is no beauty (like in Western Europe) that we (homeless Jews of 1945) should desire to (visit) him, (The State of Israel).
Isa. 53:3 He, (the State of Israel), is despised (by anti-Semites) and rejected of (Muslim) men; (Israel), a man of sorrows (long endured), and acquainted with grief (from the Holocaust): and we, (the homeless Jews of 1945), hid (in diaspora) as it were our faces from him, (the Holy Land); he, (that Promised Land), was despised (for two thousand years), and (during our millennium of Universal Christianity) we, (the now homeless Jews of 1945 had) esteemed him, (Zion), not.
Isa. 53:4 Surely, (in the Middle East), he, (this State of Israel), hath borne (in terrorist extortion) our (present day) griefs (now also upon us), and carried (the Arab hatred now) our sorrows (presently visited upon America and the West): yet we , (the homeless Jews of 1945), did esteem him (in our view, falsely) stricken (for deicide), smitten of God (in rejection), and afflicted (for the crime of Crucifixion).
Isa. 53:5 But, (Israel), he was wounded (in Diaspora) for our (political and economic) transgressions, he, (Israel), was bruised (in anti-semitism) for our (political, cultural, religious, and economic) iniquities (of centuries past): the chastisement of our peace (in the Middle East) was upon him, (Israel); and with his, (Israel), stripes, (since 1948), we are (and shall be) healed.
Isa. 53:6 All we , (today’s Jews), like sheep have gone astray, (Secular ); we have turned (inward) every one to his own (theology of the) "way"; and the LORD hath laid on him, (this State of Israel), the iniquity (we are accused of), of us all (Jews, in general everywhere).
Isa. 53:7 (This newly reformed State of Israel), He was oppressed (for fifty years), and he was afflicted (with daily terror), yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb, (Jesus/Isaac: [Gen 22:1-4]), to the slaughter, and as a sheep, (i.e.; ram/Holocaust: [Gen 22:13]) before her (muslim) shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa. 53:8 He, (Israel), was taken from prison (of concentration camps) and from (Nazi) judgment: and who shall declare (the truth of the Holocaust), his (lost) generation, (of the twentieth century)? For (by the Romans that held sway over all the Western Nations), he was cut off (in diaspora) out of the (promised) land (Israel), of the (the country where he was) living (since 1000 BC): for the transgression (of a revolt) of my people (against the power of a universal Roman Imperialism) was he stricken (in 70 AD).
Isa. 53:9 And he made his grave (in our foreign nations for 2000 years) with the wicked (pagan nations of the past), and with the rich (Western Europeans) in his death (there); because he had done no violence (in these foreign lands), neither was any (political or religious) deceit in his mouth (for he was long sequestered in his ghettos).
Isa. 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him (for these 2000 years); he hath put him, (the Jew), to grief: when thou, (O' Western Europe), shalt make his (ethnic) soul (a cleansing), an offering for (the European societal) sin (in your Holocaust), he, (in 1948 AD), shall see his seed (of Abraham enlarged), he shall prolong his days, and (the budding Statehood), the pleasure of the LORD (through prophecy), shall prosper in his hand.
Isa. 53:11 He, (Israel), shall see, (in hind sight) of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied (with the reward of the lands promised long ago): by his (Old Testament) knowledge shall my righteous servant, (Isreal), justify many (Gentiles, through their Christian faith in prophecy); for he, (this New State of Israel), shall bear (through the example of Israel's repentance and recognition of their Elijah of 32AD) their (own Christian) iniquities, (repeated in their own falling away from Christianity since the Renaissance: [Rev 20:3]).
Rev. 20:3 And cast him, (the libidinal, satanic cultural influence), into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him up (for the thousand years of the Dark Age of Monasticism), and set a seal, (the Cross), upon him, that he, (the libidinal, satanic cultural influence), should deceive the (once pagan) nations no more, till the thousand years (of the Dark Age of Monasticism) should be fulfilled: and after that, (in the Renaissance), he must be loosed a little season.
Isa. 53:12 Therefore will I divide (with) him, (these Israeli people), a portion (of the reward) with the great (multitude of Christianity), and he, (these Israeli people), shall divide the spoil (of world-wide Judeo-Christianity) with the (1.44 Billion) strong (Christian Nations of the world); because, (in Holocaust), he hath poured out his soul, (long loyal, Old Testament people) unto death (in many inquisitions over time): and he, (as a Jew, far removed from the actual event), was numbered (in every generation) with the transgressors (who opposed Christ); and he bare the sin of many (priests of that day who had placed the curse, "let his blood be upon us and our children"), and, (through Hebrew Christianity), made intercession for the (Jewish) transgressors (against their own Elijah in that day long ago, 32 AD).
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

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