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Author | Topic: If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature.... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Similarly Calvin in his commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews: "All things would instantly come to nothing, were they not sustained by his power." Yes, a lot of people do believe that this is how God operates, but my question would be whether such doctrine can be reasonably extracted from the Bible. Certainly the Bible contains passages easily interpreted to be contrary. For example, the Bible states the following in Isaiah 55:11, which I take as in direct contradiction to the 'God must constantly pay attention doctrine': "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." It appears to me that if God ordained that hemoglobin would bind to oxygen and release carbon dioxide in the lungs under certain conditions, that such a thing would continue to happen until God said otherwise. For such a transfer not to happen in the right conditions would be to have God's word return void. Somehow people who believe this doctrine must be believe that rather than saying, "let energy distort space-time and allow said distorted space time to affect motion of matter and energy through space", God must dictate, instant by instant, the motion of bodies and energy in order to keep the Earth in its orbit. I find the latter position unfathomable and unnecessary theologically. No matter how much or little God intervene's in man's daily life, it is unnecessary to believe God's word requires constant reinforcement of the type Bertot insists on. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Could it be that we can reject God's will by the use of our free will? No. It is God's will that you have choices. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
NoNukes writes: No. It is God's will that you have choices. shadow71 writes: So it is logical that we can reject his will and live with the consequences. There is at least a little equivocation regarding the word "will" in your response. I do not believe that God directs that everything goes as he wants or that everyone does as he preferes. So disobedience to God does not constitute anything particularly powerful or our part or weak on God's part.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
NoNukes writes: No. It is God's will that you have choices. shadow71 writes: So it is logical that we can reject his will and live with the consequences. There is at least a little equivocation regarding the word "will" in your response. I do not believe that God directs that everything goes as he wants or that everyone does as he preferes. So disobedience to God does not constitute anything particularly powerful or our part or weak on God's part.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
ust like with Light, if we can accept ‘God’ exists and operates independent of our universe; then it brings, what seemed like, a contradiction into an understandable and reasonable explanation. Whoa... You aren't going to be able to convince anyone that you've solved the irresistible force vs immovable object conundrum just by saying so. If you think you've got this sorted out, then show the chain of logic that makes some of those things that people thought were contradictory into something reasonable. In short I'm asking you to do the following: Start with your initial premises 1. God Exists2. God operates independent of our universe. And show that ‘a god having total control’ and us having ‘Free will’ is not inherently contradictory.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It would seem that if you are going to discuss, scientifically, the properties and behaviors of deities, as you propose, it would first be necessary to produce evidence that deities exist. Then the scientific method and logic could come into play. I think it could be a useful exercise to postulate that the laws of physics are invariant in form in any reference frames and to discuss the consequences of such a postulate even without collecting evidence that the postulate is true. Would you suggest that such a procedure is unscientific? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
No, that's what I would consider to be modeling. That is a very useful tool in science. However, for a model to accurately reflect reality it must work from evidence and assumptions based on reality. Einstein spent nearly a decade "modeling" before he was able to get something he could compare with reality. Einstein's assumption about invariance was a bit of a leap of faith. It made sense, but that is no guarantee of scientific success.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Do you agree that there is enough scientific evidence to state that: The universe is real (Not imaginary, fictional, or pretended: ACTUAL.) Is there a reason to get my buy in before you present your argument? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
If you want the whole thing at once; I could e-mail you a word document detailing my argument for the existence of a Creator. What I asked about was your contention that free will and God directing every detail were not contradictory. I don't need proof or argument that God exists given that I accept that without proof. So perhaps I don't need the ten pager.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
In other words: the All Mighty, using His ‘Total Control’ of the universe, chooses to give us the freedom to make choices. In other words, God relinquished total control. He is not controlling every detail because doing so does not allow for free will. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
If He ever stopped; our universe would simply cease to exist. Is this idea actually supported by the text of the Bible? I see a lot of people make up stuff about what God does or would do when their only basis is what they themselves would do if they were omnipotent. That kind of silly speculation is practiced by both believers and non believers. Sure, God is powerful enough to constantly control the path of the earth around the sun instant by instant. But God is also powerful enough to speak gravity into existence with one word that does not return to him void. So which path did he take and why should we believe your answer? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Soo, what you’re telling me is that you can ‘believe’ your hypothesis is correct; but you’re going to assume that its wrong?? What you are being surprised about is an essential part of the scientific method. Part of the process for verifying a hypothesis is obtaining evidence that disproves the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is based on your hypothesis being wrong. If your investigation into the null hypothesis is not robust, you'll get called on that by your peers, because you've likely made a mistake.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
In logic we need to look at the conclusion to see if the premises are valid. Generally speaking, this does not work. You cannot verify the premises are true just because the conclusion is true. The premises might well be irrelevant. For example I may have two apples. But the premises that you gave me one, and JRTJr01 gave me the other are still false.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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we can take a look at a ‘Periodic Table’ (at Wikipedia.org) and see that the Nitrogen Atom has an atomic weight of 7, water is a molecule of two Hydrogen atoms (atomic weight of 1) and one Oxygen atom (atomic weight of 8). All of those numbers are wrong. You cited the atomic number rather than the atomic weight. Not that such things are important for the discussion, but it sure looks silly to pretend to be technical and then to get things wrong.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Nicely said CS. I agree that JR's entire line of argument is hogwash.
quote: The above statement is an argument going nowhere. Evidence is simply facts that, when interpreted correctly, make one proposition more likely to be true than another competing proposition. It is an true that if I plot the altitude and azimuth of the sun and stars on a graph, that the points will show a path across the sky for each object. There is nothing objectively or subjectively false about that. The error is in the interpretation. That problem is that the particular fact does not discriminate between a spinning earth and a stationary earth in which the entire universe rotates around the earth. It is for that reason that the fact is not evidence and that conclusions based on that fact can be wrong.
Actually, Ringo made a really good point about how saying "everything" doesn't have to mean literally every single thing. Exactly. The "everything" would not include, for example your fork and knife if you left them on the plate. Your mom would not be expecting it to include food stuff that would require you to scrape at, or pick up your plate and lick, and she would not include that pat of butter you did not eat either. Plus your food is plenty full of hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen. No idea where that nonsense is going. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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