|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature.... | |||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Placebos are an example of effects produced entirely in the mind. That's not the end of it ringo. Placebos directly affect the mind, but the result can be physiological changes in the body. Even if the effect is simply to relieve stress, stress produces physical effects, and the pill can relieve those effects. Again, it would not advance your argument about reality if the doctor, instead of giving a placebo, simply convinced the patient he had nothing to worry about using discussion rather than a placebo. If you are instead talking about a purely mental effect and nothing more, then a nothing that causes nothing would not be proof of reality or non-reality. It would advance neither argument.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
On the contrary, nobody has established any real link between psychological experiences and anything ouside the psyche.. Nonsense ringo. When the physicist predicts the outcome of an experiment and has it verified that is a link. When they are proven wrong that is also a link. To deny such evidence is to surpass the evidence denying capacity of the yec. Even if it is all inside the mind (against all of the contrary evidence) then that is what it is and we can either be wrong or right about it.
Nobody can disprove that any more than they can disprove the existence of God. The concept of wrong requires the reciprocal concept of right. You can falsify it by showing me how it could be otherwise.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
The entire notion of cause and effect is a product of your imagination. As are Mod ringo and myself. Nothing exists but your mind. Can you absolutely know this is not the case? If reality is but a construct of my imagination why then is it not subject to the force of my will? Why can I not imagine it to be otherwise? If reality were the product of my imagination beer would be free, women would make sense and we would all be having a much better time.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
On the contrary, nobody has established any real link between psychological experiences and anything ouside the psyche. Yes that has been established. I find it interesting that you think it has not. Apparently you believe that things like fear and anger are all in your head. Well they are not. Those things have a physiological component. "Gradients of Physiological Arousal in Parachutists as a Function of an Approaching Jump."
quote: http://www.tandfonline.com/...300/J146v04n02_08#.U52bFJRdU8o "A Biological Model for Delayed Recall of Childhood Abuse"
quote: http://www.aipro.info/drive/File/228.pdf The Physiological and Psychological Effects of Compassion and Anger.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
If reality is but a construct of my imagination why then is it not subject to the force of my will? Because you don't have conscious control over every product of your mind? Can you make your heart beat twice instead of once at the next opportunity? Can you make your stumped toe stop hurting? Can you stop your brain from processing the audible signals received by your ear?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Why are all your dreams not happy ones? Because your subconscious is a bitch?
Again - If this disproved solipsistic possibilities do you not think Descarte and every subsequent philosophical giant might have provided your position with firmer shoulders to stand upon? Your absolutism with regard to truth depends on you having absolute knowledge of things which you cannot possibly know absolutely.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
What I said was that if the doctor told you he gave you a placebo - e.g. in your IV - it would have the same effect as if you swallowed a pill. The effects in your body are caused completely by your mind. The placebo doesn't have to be "real" at all.
Again, it would not advance your argument about reality if the doctor, instead of giving a placebo, simply convinced the patient he had nothing to worry about using discussion rather than a placebo. NoNukes writes:
I'm not trying to advance either argument. I'm trying to shoot down one of them. Can you guess which one?
If you are instead talking about a purely mental effect and nothing more, then a nothing that causes nothing would not be proof of reality or non-reality. It would advance neither argument.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
The observations of the experiment are within the psyche. The consensus among peers in in the psyche of each peer. Your observation of their results is within your psyche. You could be hallucinating this entire discussion.
When the physicist predicts the outcome of an experiment and has it verified that is a link. When they are proven wrong that is also a link. ProtoTypical writes:
In your philosophy it does but your philosophy is entirely in your mind.
The concept of wrong requires the reciprocal concept of right.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
You're missing the point: the only evidence of "physiology" that you have is in your mind.
Apparently you believe that things like fear and anger are all in your head. Well they are not. Those things have a physiological component.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
You're missing the point: the only evidence of "physiology" that you have is in your mind. I understand that to be the concept you are pushing. But your claim that no link between physiology and mind has ever been established does not seem to be related to that idea. It is instead an incorrect statement about what we believe to be true. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Why are all your dreams not happy ones? Because your subconscious is a bitch? They are not all happy ones because they are influenced by external things. If reality is the result of my imagination and I do not control my imagination then reality is a separate thing from my conscious mind which is where I experience reality. If my subconscious manifests itself in my dreams then it is clearly not equal to reality. If I am resposible for reality then why would I imagine my corporeal self to be such a feeble and mortal creature? Here is another hurdle for solipsism. My mother existed before I did. It seems to me that if you would entertain solipsism as a viable possibility then there is nothing that you would not consider to be possible? The notion that anyone could hold the totality of existence within their mind is preposterous and could be described as believing oneself to be God.
Again - If this disproved solipsistic possibilities do you not think Descarte and every subsequent philosophical giant might have provided your position with firmer shoulders to stand upon? According to these guys Descartes dismissed solipsism this way.
quote: Personally, I think that Descartes had God on the brain and got plenty of things wrong.
Your absolutism with regard to truth depends on you having absolute knowledge of things which you cannot possibly know absolutely. Can we be absolutely certain that reality is not a product of Descartes' brain? When I die will you be certain that reality was not dependant on the existence of my brain?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Proto writes: What about my dog? Can we say with certainty that all of reality is not dependent on the imagination of my dog? Proto writes: Can we be absolutely certain that reality is not a product of Descartes' brain? When I die will you be certain that reality was not dependant on the existence of my brain? You seem to have a lot of trouble understanding what solipsism is. Talk of reality being created by the mind of your dog or by the mind of dead people misses the point entirely.
quote: Talking of the minds of others is to assume/conclude that others have minds. But this cannot be known absolutely. This is the problem with your absolutism.
Proto writes: Personally, I think that Descartes had God on the brain and got plenty of things wrong. Sure - But there is a reason he is dubbed as the father of modern philosophy and it has much to do with "I think therefore I am". Think about it...... Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
You could be hallucinating this entire discussion. A hallucination being that condition where our perception does not match reality.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
You seem to have a lot of trouble understanding what solipsism is. Talk of reality being created by the mind of your dog or by the mind of dead people misses the point entirely. No, I understand the concept. It requires the duplicity of accepting one's own existence while denying the substance of that existence. You can not use the senses to proclaim that you exist and then deny the validity of the senses to be able to determine that something exists. Your defence of solipsism denies equal access to the facts. The most cursory of examinations reveals that the dead man possessed the same kind of mind that I do. My dog receives tactile sensations in the same manner that I do. This is proven and can be demonstrated. All of the available evidence indicates that solipsism is an impossibility.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Firstly - I'm not defending solipsism. I'm pointing out it is an issue for absolutism of the sort you are advocating. That's all.
Proto writes: All of the available evidence indicates that solipsism is an impossibility. The whole point of solipsism is that "All of the available evidence" could be misleading and any conclusions based on it therefore entirely wrong. Your absolutist stance remains founded on something of which you cannot possibly be absolutely certain.
Proto writes: You can not use the senses to proclaim that you exist and then deny the validity of the senses to be able to determine that something exists. The entire point of the evil demon and "Cogito ergo sum" is to consider what one can be absolutely certain of whilst doubting one's senses. That's the point. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024