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Author Topic:   Continuation of Flood Discussion
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 781 of 1304 (732310)
07-06-2014 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 777 by Faith
07-06-2014 1:56 AM


Re: Faith still has presented no evidence
Lots of things happen that aren't comparable to a worldwide Flood, which would have been unique after all.
But how do you know? You have nothing to compare. You have not given us anything that is outside of standard, mainstream events; and yet you claim that your flood is different.
Again, it's my hypothesis of what probably happened because it seems to explain a lot of things at once. I'll let you know when I have evidence for it to confirm it.
I'm certain that neither you nor I will live that long.
Nothing that hasn't been answered many times before already.
Nonsense. Tanypterix asked earlier where the sediments came from in the middle of a global flood. How do you get river gravels such as those in the Claron when there are no rivers and no land to erode?
Where do the limestones come from?
How do you get evaporite deposits in the middle of a flood?
How do you get trace fossils such as ant hills and dinosaur footprints at the bottom of the ocean?
If you can answer these, I have others.
Don't see why you think it so unlikely. The upper strata would still have been fairly soft. And again, the Flood would have been unique in many ways, ...
Okay, what ways are those?
... which Old Earthers seem to be unable to imagine properly, ...
Well, it appears you are correct here. They would HAVE to be imagined.
... likening it to limited confined local events. Certainly more likely than the idea that millions of years would have cleaned off the surface of the Kaibab anywhere near as efficiently as the reality shows happened.
Maybe there was nothing to clear off.
I mean, we know that erosion didn't completely remove all of thos buttes in Monument Valley. Maybe those are the remnants that you say don't exist any more.
Oh, wait! You didn't actually find it, did you?
?
You had to imagine them, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 1:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 782 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 12:32 PM edge has replied
 Message 783 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 12:46 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 782 of 1304 (732313)
07-06-2014 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by edge
07-06-2014 9:38 AM


Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
Lots of things happen that aren't comparable to a worldwide Flood, which would have been unique after all.
But how do you know? You have nothing to compare. You have not given us anything that is outside of standard, mainstream events; and yet you claim that your flood is different.
A little normal imagination ought to be able to tell you that much just because nothing like it ever occurred before or since. That's obviously how one knows it was different. The effects it left would of course be within what we observe of the planet's condition, but how the Flood operated simply cannot be compared with a river or any local flood. Really, edge, how could it be, a Flood that inundated the entire planet?
And it ought to be pretty obvious that when you are talking about a one time worldwide event that nobody reported on scientifically at the time, so that all you have is a few scanty descriptions, that you are left with speculation, so that the scientific approach to that would be to work with the known facts of the world you do know about, in connection with what is presented in the only report we have of that one time worldwide event.
I'd grant you that you with your geological knowledge should do better at this than I do, but you don't believe in it so you don't bother and you spend your time coming up with objections to it, but if it is real as those of us who believe in it of course take it to be, then we work with what comes to hand. And I believe that once you know it happened you see it in everything on the planet. I do. I see it in the strata and the fossils, and the tumble-down appearance of things. The world screams worldwide Flood to me, the more so the more I get some idea of how perfect, green and lush the original Creation was, from which the planet we have now has fallen.
Again, it's my hypothesis of what probably happened because it seems to explain a lot of things at once. I'll let you know when I have evidence for it to confirm it.
I'm certain that neither you nor I will live that long.
Yes, that could well be.
Nothing that hasn't been answered many times before already.
Nonsense. Tanypterix asked earlier where the sediments came from in the middle of a global flood. How do you get river gravels such as those in the Claron when there are no rivers and no land to erode?
Where do the limestones come from?
What's with the phrase "in the middle of?" As I've answered many times the idea is that the sediments come from the land mass that was saturated at the beginning of the Flood, and the limestone from the ocean, as per Walther's Law according to the first version of this thread. Sand, silt, clay, carbonates, the spectrum that ended up in the sedimentary rock. If the ocean lays down separated sediments as it transgresses the land, according to Walther, it makes sense to me that it did so with the sediments available in the Flood water.
How do you get evaporite deposits in the middle of a flood?
Of course you don't. Again, what's with that "middle" bit? My guess would be that they leached out of the surrounding rock after deposition of the whole stack, but a more knowledgeable geological thought on how it could have happened would be welcome. Figure the rock was full of water at first, which carried down through the layers whatever chemicals were in it, those that would have contributed to the lithification of the rock over time for instance, and salts and whatever else was there as well. Imagination, hypothesis of course. Haven't worked on it much but there's what I've thought.
How do you get trace fossils such as ant hills and dinosaur footprints at the bottom of the ocean?
Those occur rather high up in the stack rather than at the bottom of the ocean, and the best guess I'm aware of is that they occurred between tides or waves of either the transgressing or regressing ocean.
If you can answer these, I have others.
Why don't you help out the creationists some? I'm sure your imagination is as good as ours, it's just that you don't like what we are trying to prove. See what you come up with for my team?
Don't see why you think it so unlikely. The upper strata would still have been fairly soft. And again, the Flood would have been unique in many ways, ...
Okay, what ways are those?
A few would be the depth, the fact that there were no boundaries to it just endless water, ways it would move according to tides and currents and probably long breaking waves before and after the land was inundated, movements we don't see in rivers and small floods and that sort of thing. Full of sediments that killed creatures by the bazillions, buried many of them in the layers on the land, in conditions perfect for fossilization.
... which Old Earthers seem to be unable to imagine properly, ...
Well, it appears you are correct here. They would HAVE to be imagined.
Of course they would. That's all one CAN do with the unwitnessed prehistoric past. That's all Old Earthers and evolutionists do with their scenarios of different time periods and the flora and fauna they imagine to have lived then, with the geological scenarios of those past ages too, all conjured up from stuff found in the rocks. The theory of how the dinosaurs were supposedly wiped out depends on this layer of iridium found at the surface of a particular layer that probably came from a meteor. That's it, that's the basis for the fantasy of a global catastrophe brought about by the meteor that did them in. You've got the iridium, you've found a large meteor crater, you've got the dinosaur fossils and the rest is imagination.
... likening it to limited confined local events. Certainly more likely than the idea that millions of years would have cleaned off the surface of the Kaibab anywhere near as efficiently as the reality shows happened.
Maybe there was nothing to clear off.
I mean, we know that erosion didn't completely remove all of thos buttes in Monument Valley. Maybe those are the remnants that you say don't exist any more.
Not getting your point. Whatever it cleaned off it cleaned off. It didn't just leave the monuments, it also left a butte south of the Grand Canyon and it left the cliffs of the Grand Staircase etc.
Oh, wait! You didn't actually find it, did you?
?
You had to imagine them, right?
Just as you have to imagine how millions of years of erosion did it all instead, how the Missoula flood cut the scablands and so on. You just don't seem to appreciate how much of your work involves nothing but imagination based on a clue here, a fact there.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 9:38 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 786 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 1:56 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 783 of 1304 (732314)
07-06-2014 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by edge
07-06-2014 9:38 AM


overlooked
Overlooked this:
How do you get river gravels such as those in the Claron when there are no rivers and no land to erode?
But not everything happened in the Flood. There have been a few thousand years since then you know, in which rivers have been running which didn't run during the Flood. And the sediments that built the strata would have been washed off the land mass and joined with ocean sediments to lay down the layers already, one of which was the Claron, so we don't need more land to erode for that purpose. \
ABE: Realized you are referring to the "massive erosion" after the Flood. Well, the Claron was one of the cliffs left by it in the Grand Staircase area.
ABE: Or are you saying there are gravels there now but no rivers? I don't know, would have to ponder it. Former rivers I would suppose, since the Flood though. First guess.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 9:38 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 784 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 1:28 PM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 784 of 1304 (732316)
07-06-2014 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 783 by Faith
07-06-2014 12:46 PM


Re: overlooked
But not everything happened in the Flood. There have been a few thousand years since then you know, in which rivers have been running which didn't run during the Flood.
In the Claron Formation?
And the sediments that built the strata would have been washed off the land mass and joined with ocean sediments to lay down the layers already, one of which was the Claron, so we don't need more land to erode for that purpose. (bold added)
So there was a land mass during your global flood?
ABE: Realized you are referring to the "massive erosion" after the Flood. Well, the Claron was one of the cliffs left by it in the Grand Staircase area.
So there WERE rivers and lakes during Claron time, i.e., the flood.
You seem confused.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 783 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 12:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 785 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 1:33 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 785 of 1304 (732317)
07-06-2014 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 784 by edge
07-06-2014 1:28 PM


Re: overlooked
There was a land mass before the global flood and still land mass after a lot of it had eroded into the Flood waters during the Flood. Of course. Then the strata would have built upon that remaining pretty much denuded land mass.
The Flood is NOT "rivers and lakes" but those would have occurred afterward.
I AM confused about what you're asking about the Claron. Added another edit there too that you apparently missed. I don't know what you are asking.
What on earth is "Claron time?" The Claron was one of the deposits made by the Flood. Most of it eroded away along with the other cliffs of the Grand Staircase, which I've hypothesized was the result of the receding Flood waters.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 784 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 1:28 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 2:03 PM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 786 of 1304 (732318)
07-06-2014 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 782 by Faith
07-06-2014 12:32 PM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
A little normal imagination ought to be able to tell you that much just because nothing like it ever occurred before or since. That's obviously how one knows it was different.
But that's not evidence, particularly when you can't tell us what the flood was like.
The effects it left would of course be within what we observe of the planet's condition, but how the Flood operated simply cannot be compared with a river or any local flood. Really, edge, how could it be, a Flood that inundated the entire planet?
So, what effects are those? Everything we see is explainable by normal, mainstream interpretation.
What was different about your flood?
And it ought to be pretty obvious that when you are talking about a one time worldwide event that nobody reported on scientifically at the time, so that all you have is a few scanty descriptions, that you are left with speculation, so that the scientific approach to that would be to work with the known facts of the world you do know about, in connection with what is presented in the only report we have of that one time worldwide event.
But speculation is not fact. And you have given us nothing as far as 'known facts' about your flood.
I have no problems with speculation, nor with imagination, but they are not evidence.
I'd grant you that you with your geological knowledge should do better at this than I do, but you don't believe in it so you don't bother and you spend your time coming up with objections to it, but if it is real as those of us who believe in it of course take it to be, then we work with what comes to hand. And I believe that once you know it happened you see it in everything on the planet. I do. I see it in the strata and the fossils, and the tumble-down appearance of things. The world screams worldwide Flood to me, the more so the more I get some idea of how perfect, green and lush the original Creation was, from which the planet we have now has fallen.
A screaming world is not evidence. If you showed me some actual evidence that could not be explained by mainstream science, then you might have a case; but so far, you have shown me nothing.
What's with the phrase "in the middle of?" As I've answered many times the idea is that the sediments come from the land mass that was saturated at the beginning of the Flood, and the limestone from the ocean, as per Walther's Law according to the first version of this thread. Sand, silt, clay, carbonates, the spectrum that ended up in the sedimentary rock. If the ocean lays down separated sediments as it transgresses the land, according to Walther, it makes sense to me that it did so with the sediments available in the Flood water.
So, your sediments came from a land mass that existed during a global flood.
And a one-year flood gave us thousands of feet of limestone.
So, did the dinosaur track just occur on the lang masses that existed during the flood? And the evaporites occurred from dessication of lakes during the flood, also?
Of course you don't. Again, what's with that "middle" bit? My guess would be that they leached out of the surrounding rock after deposition of the whole stack, but a more knowledgeable geological thought on how it could have happened would be welcome.
You mean like, "the flood never happened"?
Please give us your mechanism for 'leaching' of the salt and deposition in nice pure strata.
Figure the rock was full of water at first, which carried down through the layers whatever chemicals were in it, those that would have contributed to the lithification of the rock over time for instance, and salts and whatever else was there as well. Imagination, hypothesis of course. Haven't worked on it much but there's what I've thought.
You need more practice. Dewatering does not occur in a downward direction.
A few would be the depth, ...
How was the depth different? Do we not have deep oceans now? Do we not have thick accumulations of sediments now?
... the fact that there were no boundaries to it just endless water, ways it would move according to tides and currents and probably long breaking waves before and after the land was inundated, ...
We don't have those now, in the ocean? What would be different and how would the waves create different features? Evidence, Faith...
... movements we don't see in rivers and small floods and that sort of thing.
What movements are those? Don't you see that you are just making stuff up?
Full of sediments that killed creatures by the bazillions, buried many of them in the layers on the land, in conditions perfect for fossilization.
Do we not have fossils forming today?
Show us what was different back then, in the form of evidence, of course.
Those occur rather high up in the stack rather than at the bottom of the ocean, and the best guess I'm aware of is that they occurred between tides or waves of either the transgressing or regressing ocean.
So, once again, you are saying that there were land masses during the flood? Do you know how many high tides there are in a day? How did dinosaurs build nests and raise young in less than 12 hours?
Of course they would. That's all one CAN do with the unwitnessed prehistoric past. That's all Old Earthers and evolutionists do with their scenarios of different time periods and the flora and fauna they imagine to have lived then, with the geological scenarios of those past ages too, all conjured up from stuff found in the rocks. The theory of how the dinosaurs were supposedly wiped out depends on this layer of iridium found at the surface of a particular layer that probably came from a meteor. That's it, that's the basis for the fantasy of a global catastrophe brought about by the meteor that did them in. You've got the iridium, you've found a large meteor crater, you've got the dinosaur fossils and the rest is imagination.
So, basically, you are saying that evidence is over-rated and that pure unconstrained imagination should be the basis of theories. I disagree.
You have been given reams of evidence in this forum, including the iridium layer. And you simply dismiss it. What about the old 'same evidence, different interpretation' canard. How can you justify that when you just refuse to address evidence?
Just as you have to imagine how millions of years of erosion did it all instead, how the Missoula flood cut the scablands and so on. You just don't seem to appreciate how much of your work involves nothing but imagination based on a clue here, a fact there.
Actually, I don't just imagine it, I have data such as known sedimentation rates and radiometric dating, etc. So far, you have shown us nothing but, 'it was a really, really, really big flood!'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 782 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 12:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 788 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 2:07 PM edge has replied
 Message 792 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 2:27 PM edge has replied
 Message 799 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 4:39 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 787 of 1304 (732319)
07-06-2014 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 785 by Faith
07-06-2014 1:33 PM


Re: overlooked
There was a land mass before the global flood and still land mass after a lot of it had eroded into the Flood waters during the Flood. Of course. Then the strata would have built upon that remaining pretty much denuded land mass.
Okay so then the Claron was deposited after the flood. I'm glad we cleared that up.
But then, what about channels cut in the Muav Limestone? What about the Uncompahgre Uplift? What about erosion at the Great Unconformity? What about eolian sand deposits of the Coconino? Or the swamps of the Hermit Shale?
And this is just in the GC area...
The Flood is NOT "rivers and lakes" but those would have occurred afterward.
Okay so lakes and rivers in the Claron came after the flood and the Hurricane Fault came even later.
What on earth is "Claron time?"
It's shorthand for "The time during which the Claron Formation was deposited".
The Claron was one of the deposits made by the Flood.
Not according to you. You said that the lakes and rivers came later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 785 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 1:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 789 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 2:09 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 788 of 1304 (732320)
07-06-2014 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 786 by edge
07-06-2014 1:56 PM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
AS I SAID, when you know the Flood occurred and you know when it occurred but all you have is a few facts about how it started, how deep it was and how long it lasted, what would YOU do to reconstruct it? Again, believing in it, knowing it happened. Denying it happened is not an option. We use the facts and evidence we have. You think it's not enough, too bad, it's what we have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 1:56 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 790 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 2:22 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 789 of 1304 (732321)
07-06-2014 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by edge
07-06-2014 2:03 PM


Re: overlooked
The Claron was one of the deposits made by the Flood.
Not according to you. You said that the lakes and rivers came later.
Yeah, after the Flood. What is your problem?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 2:03 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 791 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 2:24 PM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 790 of 1304 (732322)
07-06-2014 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 788 by Faith
07-06-2014 2:07 PM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
AS I SAID, when you know the Flood occurred and you know when it occurred but all you have is a few facts about how it started, how deep it was and how long it lasted, what would YOU do to reconstruct it?
Okay, assuming you use the term 'fact' loosely in this question, I would set about attempting to find evidence for this flood and then pursue some kind of mechanism, timing, etc. You will notice that this has not been the strategy of YEC scientists. They go about doing the equivalent of proving that internal combustion doesn't work after they've removed the wiring from the engine.
Again, believing in it, knowing it happened. Denying it happened is not an option. We use the facts and evidence we have. You think it's not enough, too bad, it's what we have.
In that case, I would be searching for evidence of the flood for a verrrrry long time. This provides a whole new understanding of the term 'quixotic'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 2:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 800 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 4:50 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 791 of 1304 (732323)
07-06-2014 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 789 by Faith
07-06-2014 2:09 PM


Re: overlooked
Yeah, after the Flood. What is your problem?
Well, my problem is interpreting your posts.
You said that the Claron was deposited during the flood, and yet, it contains lake and river sediments...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 789 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 2:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 793 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 2:29 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 792 of 1304 (732325)
07-06-2014 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 786 by edge
07-06-2014 1:56 PM


Re: Imagination rules in the sciences of the unwitnessed past
I already answered everything you are so ridiculously misrepresenting or posing again in that post. Take it or leave it. You'll leave it of course and go on misrepresenting it. Tired of trying to argue in good faith. See ya later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 1:56 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 796 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 3:53 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 793 of 1304 (732326)
07-06-2014 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 791 by edge
07-06-2014 2:24 PM


Re: overlooked
So?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 2:24 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 794 by edge, posted 07-06-2014 3:45 PM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 794 of 1304 (732327)
07-06-2014 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 793 by Faith
07-06-2014 2:29 PM


Re: overlooked
So?
So, which is it? Is the Claron flood or post-flood?
You said that all tectonic activity and erosion occurred post-flood, after the Claron, yet, we have lake sediments in the Claron.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 793 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 2:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 797 by Faith, posted 07-06-2014 4:35 PM edge has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 795 of 1304 (732328)
07-06-2014 3:47 PM


so would of the Biblical Floods be that different?
Faith keeps claiming great differences if one or more of the Biblical Flood stories actually happened but just what would have been different from floods we see pretty regularly?
Water rises, flood lands, gets deeper and deeper, then runs off from high ground to lower ground to sea level.
We have over 10,000 years of observing the results of different floods which is a pretty large data set so we have a pretty good idea of what a flood can and cannot do.
So far there is no known mechanism that would allow a flood to move structures like foot print trails or a nest with eggs without disturbance so if someone wishes to assert one of the Biblical Floods happened a first and necessary step would be to provide the process or mechanism and evidence that such a mechanism is possible.
So far there is no known mechanism that would allow a flood to sort things from less to more evolved so if someone wishes to assert one of the Biblical Floods happened a first and necessary step would be to provide the process or mechanism and evidence that such a mechanism is possible.
So far there is no known mechanism that would allow a flood to move structures like limestone or sand stone or granite and then deposit them by material and in order so if someone wishes to assert one of the Biblical Floods happened a first and necessary step would be to provide the process or mechanism and evidence such a mechanism is possible.
Granted all of these would only be a first step and offer almost no support to the position that any of the Biblical Flood stories actually happened but they would be necessary steps to be followed by similar examples covering the tens of thousands of data points that refute either of the Biblical Floods actually being more than myths. Any single example that cannot be adequately explains would be sufficient to toss the flood myths into the trashcan.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
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