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Author Topic:   Continuation of Flood Discussion
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 978 of 1304 (732863)
07-11-2014 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 976 by Faith
07-11-2014 6:00 PM


Re: Massive errosion and massive delta formation
Why should it take a great deal of time if there's tons of it suspended in the water that is rising over the land? Five months isn't enough?
Why would it be suspended in the water? Where did it come from? Why wouldn't it all settle out at once then, when we know that limestone has been periodically deposited at numerous times in geologic history?
And this is related to the formation of limestone strata how?
Because some limestones are coral reefs. Others are partially digested coral, as someone correctly reported earlier.
Amenable no doubt, but not necessarily NOT amenable to a shorter time period and unusual sedimentation rates.
Ah, excellent. You have a chance now to provide us with evidence that this has happened. Please do so.
Oh some of the reconstructions of what may have happened have more plausibility than others, and are not at all based on "what we don't know" as you put it but on what we extrapolate from what we do know to a situation we can only imagine.
So, I see. You are allowed to pick and choose...
But certainly it is true that you rely on what you don't know. This is clear from the lack of evidence in your posts. You are allowed to imagine things and make the real.
We're going the best we can with what God has told us, and we believe God over any scientists who contradict what He has written in really very clear language.
So God isn't giving you much data, eh? Makes things kind of difficult. Why is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 976 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 6:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 980 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 6:59 PM edge has replied
 Message 993 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 2:01 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 981 of 1304 (732873)
07-11-2014 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 979 by Faith
07-11-2014 6:49 PM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
I would like to get back to this topic eventually if possible but right now I just want to ask: Would the Geological Time Scale ever have existed if the strata were not always found one on top of another in the order of evolution attributed to their fossil contents? The idea is absurd it seems to me.
Probably. There is enough overlap of strat columns that correlation is possible over huge areas. But that isn't what happened. As William Smith found, it was possible to predict both rock type and fossils from one area to another based on geologic mapping.
The point about the Claron, or any layer in the Geo Column for that matter IS that it is found in the order of the time periods assigned to it. abe: ABOVE the "older" ones, BELOW any that are more recent. If it weren't for this physical ordering the very idea of the Geological Time Scale would never have occurred to anyone. /abe
I'll have to get back to this.
I'm not sure what your point is here. The principle of superposition is pretty well established.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 979 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 6:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 983 by Coyote, posted 07-11-2014 9:10 PM edge has replied
 Message 984 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 9:49 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 982 of 1304 (732874)
07-11-2014 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 980 by Faith
07-11-2014 6:59 PM


Re: Massive errosion and massive delta formation
Well, it must be if it forms those deposits off shore in the Walther's model.
That doesn't answer the question. Where does the carbonate come from if it is suspended in the water?
That's the idea isn't it, that those sediments that deposit in the order illustrated are carried in the water and settle out in turn according to their size?
If the materials aren't there, it doesn't matter what Walther's Law says.
And the carbonates and foram ooze are there along with the rest of them.
Okay, show us the evidence that all of that carbonate was suspended at one point in time. That would be such a foram bloom that it would probably cause extinction on its own.
What else would one suppose but that they too are suspended in the water and settle out where their size dictates?.
The amount of carbonate would almost suggest a dilute cement slurry rather than a suspension of carbonate fossils.
Wherever it came from to settle out according to Walther's law wherever it happened to settle out.
Again, that does not answer the question. Where did the carbonate come from? You tell me where it settled, but where did it come from?
Why should this be a question at this point?
Because you just said that it settled out in some specific location. I'm asking where it came from.
If it exists in that model then it existed in the water and settled out where it settled out.
So, you are not going to answer the question. Okay.
Perhaps it did for the most part "all settle out at once" in the Flood conditions, wherever there was a lot of it suspended over the land.
"Suspended over the land?"
Whut?
How did it get there. All you are saying is that 'there was carbonate'.
We have to explain the thick limestone strata and the Cliffs of Dover among other deposits all over the world after all.
That's what I'm doing. Long periods of quiet sedimentation isolated from terrigenous contamination.
I have a question about corals by the way: How much of the calcium carbonate in the strata could be attributed to crushed coral?
I have no idea, but it is huge. Most limestone is extremely fine-grained, textureless calcium carbonate grains. I've read of significant contributions from the byproduct of coral-eating species. It's really pretty amazing to see the extent of carbonate sands on the continental shelves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 980 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 6:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 985 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 9:52 PM edge has replied
 Message 992 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 1:55 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 986 of 1304 (732879)
07-11-2014 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 984 by Faith
07-11-2014 9:49 PM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
Yes I love that map. I'd love to have a huge poster of it along with a poster of the GS-GC cross section I also love, to pin on my wall. See, I LIKE geology.
Evidently. However, your training appears to be lacking.
Anyway, what Smith's map shows is what is left of the strata from massive erosion of what was very probably the original stack miles deep.[/qs] But they are all folded, aren't they?
All in order, ascending from Precambrian through Holocene.
I'm not sure that Great Britain has that much coverage, but this is moot.
Ascending, up the physical ladder. So that where an area is eroded away it exposes the lower strata, and the higher areas are what's left of the the higher strata, and it's all the same Geological Column just more intact in some places than others.[/qs] With certain limitations, sure. However, if uplift is sufficiently large, older rocks are exposed so that older rocks are actually physically higher.
There's no problem there, it's all the same geological column. The problem is when you have an entirely new deposition somewhere else entirely, say at the bottom of the English Channel perhaps, and you want to call that the next level up from the Holocene. "Oh, why is that a problem?" you are sure to ask, and all I can do is roll my eyes, sorry.
Erosion and deposition have been going on for billions of years. By the nature of the process they can't be at the same place at the same time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 984 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 9:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 991 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 1:43 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 987 of 1304 (732880)
07-11-2014 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 985 by Faith
07-11-2014 9:52 PM


Re: Massive errosion and massive delta formation
Found a creationist page saying there are dead corals on the deep ocean floor. Yes?
Sure, but we still have coral reefs, do we not? A flood of the proportions you suggest would have killed off all coral reefs. If not the depth of water, then the turbidity would have made them extinct.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by Faith, posted 07-11-2014 9:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 988 of 1304 (732881)
07-11-2014 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 983 by Coyote
07-11-2014 9:10 PM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
I have a bumpersticker on the truck, "Archaeologists assume superposition."
Sometimes, I just have to pull rank and say that scientists are special.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 983 by Coyote, posted 07-11-2014 9:10 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 990 by Coyote, posted 07-12-2014 12:26 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 995 of 1304 (732888)
07-12-2014 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 991 by Faith
07-12-2014 1:43 AM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
Again the point is that the STACK is there and it CLIMBS up from the "older" to the "newer" and there is no way that it could "continue" at the bottom of the ocean.
I don't see why not?
What you are saying is that as soon as an area is eroded, sedimentary deposition stops.
Don't you agree that it just goes elsewhere?
It has to climb one layer upon another to represent the Geological Time Scale.
There is nothing in the science of geology that says this. Can you document or otherwise support this statement?
I really don't get how such an obvious fact escapes you.
There seems to be a lot that you don'get.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 991 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 1:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 997 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 2:43 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 996 of 1304 (732889)
07-12-2014 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 992 by Faith
07-12-2014 1:55 AM


Re: Pre-Flood world much more fecund
You are changing the subject by insisting that I tell you "where it came from," that's why I'm not answering. But I can answer this way: The pre-Flood world was so fecund it produced enough for the depositions we see. We could also consider that the corals, like every other living thing, was hardier in that time period than since then, everything having deteriorated due to the massive death that the Flood brought about, which created a bottleneck in every species.
And you get all of this from the Bible. Wow...
Eventually that would take its toll on the vitality of every creature since then. So there's my guess where it came from. Bazillions more corals then than now, same as with every other living creature, and much better able to withstand threatening conditions then than now too, although of course the Flood took its toll on them as well as every other creature.\
Astounding how much you know about a flood that left no evidence behind.
But I can see now why you wouldn't want to answer my question.
Probably the answer to standard Geology's insistence on the need for huge time periods, especially for the abundance of living things in the fossil record, is always that the pre-Flood world was incredibly more lush than the world we are left with after the Flood.
And you have evidence for this, of course.
You also express astonishment at my saying it would have been "susp0ended over the land," but that is what would have been the case as the water rose, would it not? It would then settle out.
Actually, it's more like puzzlement. If the land were covered by water, I wouldn't consider it to be land any more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 992 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 1:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 998 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 2:48 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 999 of 1304 (732892)
07-12-2014 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 994 by Faith
07-12-2014 2:34 AM


Re: Massive errosion and massive delta formation
So all the limestone strata were "grown in place?"
Well, deposited...
How do they manage to grow into a form that is exactly like all the other strata then, a slab of rock basically horizontal, flat on top and bottom?
Well, they are sedimentary. And no, they are not all just like other sediments. In fact, even other sediments are not necessarily planar slabs.
Growing things are rather more unruly than that. (so are sand dunes for that matter, yet supposedly it's sand dunes in that massive flat rock called the Coconino.)
That's plain silly. Faith, do you ever think about what you write before you write it? The bulk of limestones are sedimentary and tabular in form. Some are reefal deposits and they can be seen as irregularly shaped.
I REALLY wish you had taken just one geology course before you began posting here. I think that you are disagreeing just to be disagreeable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 2:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1003 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 3:05 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1000 of 1304 (732893)
07-12-2014 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 997 by Faith
07-12-2014 2:43 AM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
Actually I don't see why there has to be sedimentation going on somewhere all the time at all, which is what you seem to be implying.
Of course you don't. But will you then explain what happens to sediments that are being eroded right now.
Or are you saying that mountain ranges are not eroding away and filling rivers with sediment?
But anyway, if the sedimentary deposition "just goes elsewhere" and stops building up the stack, which is the model for the Geological Time Scale, ...
No, it is not. That is your strawman.
... that's effectively the end of the Geological Time Scale although it is not the end of sedimentation or history or anything else.
What are they going to say a mllion years from now? You have no concept of time or processes and I can't help you with that.
And again this is so obvious...
To you. I don't see many people agreeing.
And you know what I say when a YEC says something is obvious?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 997 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 2:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1002 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 2:59 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1001 of 1304 (732894)
07-12-2014 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 998 by Faith
07-12-2014 2:48 AM


Re: Pre-Flood world much more fecund
So if the land is covered with water it stops being land for the duration of the coverage and resumes being land when the water goes away? Such a nomenclature seems pretty weird to me but if there's a good reason for it I'll reconsider it.
Well, I'm never quite sure what you mean.
The rest of your post you just refuse to consider anything I'm saying as usual.
Heh, heh...
I think everything you say is unusual.
What I'm doing is giving you the scenario, the alternative model for the same information you have. That's really all you have too, is your own scenario although you think you have evidence for it.
Except that you never present evidence, only assertions.
And no, you don't use the same information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 998 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 2:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1004 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 3:06 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1005 of 1304 (732898)
07-12-2014 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1002 by Faith
07-12-2014 2:59 AM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
Eroded material doesn't have to form layers, it can just pile up, it can just become talus, all kinds of things. There is no reason whatever it has to contribute to the Geological Column, let alone the Geological Time Scale.
So, the sediments deposited at the mouths of rivers is not part of the geological record.
There would be no Geological Time Scale unless the "time periods" formed one on top of the other
I have asked you to back up this statement.
You have failed to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1002 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 2:59 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1008 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 3:17 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 1006 of 1304 (732899)
07-12-2014 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1003 by Faith
07-12-2014 3:05 AM


Re: Massive errosion and massive delta formation
I can guarantee you that a Geology course would not change what I'm trying to say here. I've read a LOT of Geology, I just put it to my own uses.
I was thinking that maybe you could communicate better.
I am talking about the STRATA for crying out loud. They are ALL flat slabs of rock. Limestone, sandstone, all of it, FLAT SLABS OF ROCK!!! Sheesh!
But they are not necessarily so. Just because the GC layers are tabular does not mean that all sedimentary deposits are tablular. What about river deltas? How do you think they show up in the geological record? Or river deposits? I assure you that your depth of understanding here is inadequate to debate. You just sound silly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1003 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 3:05 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1007 of 1304 (732900)
07-12-2014 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1004 by Faith
07-12-2014 3:06 AM


Re: Pre-Flood world much more fecund
You are by far the weirdest opponent I've ever had to deal with here. I'm sure you could say the same about me.
I'm only trying to help. But it doesn't seem to do much good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1004 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 3:06 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1736 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1009 of 1304 (732902)
07-12-2014 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1008 by Faith
07-12-2014 3:17 AM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
Yes, Faith, everyone around here is crazy except you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by Faith, posted 07-12-2014 3:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
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