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Author Topic:   If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature....
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 406 of 708 (737054)
09-16-2014 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by Dogmafood
07-09-2014 8:51 AM


Re: ‘Absolut Truth’ ‘trivial’? !?!?!
ProtoTypical writes:
The uncertainty of the observer has nothing to do with the absoluteness of reality.
I completely agree with this statement.
What I do not agree with is how you jump from this statement to saying that we can somehow know or identify parts of reality that are, indeed, "absolute."
What is your method of doing so?
Things are either real or they are not. If the moon is real then it is absolutely real.
Let me start with something simpler, again, I like your Mona Lisa example
The Mona Lisa we look at is either real or it is fake.
If the Mona Lisa is real, then it is absolutely real.
(I totally agree so far).
But... how do we know that the Mona Lisa is real (ie... not a fake)?
Maybe we watched it get painted and mounted and hung in our house.
But then... we went to sleep.
How do we know it wasn't swapped out without our knowledge while we slept?
We would get up in the morning, it would look like the Mona Lisa... but it would not be the "absolute" Mona Lisa.
How do we get around such a problem with reality?
How do we know if reality is "absolute" or not without being able to compare it against something to identify such a tribute?
What if reality was an illusion? Then, yes, that illusion would be "absolutely real to us".
But that's not the question.. the question is how do we know if reality is 'acting like it's absolutely real' or if it's actually 'absolutely real'?
I think the answer is that we cannot know.
I also think that the answer is practically useless. Who cares if there's no difference?
I do not care.
But, just because I don't care doesn't mean I start lying to myself about what I actually can know and can't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Dogmafood, posted 07-09-2014 8:51 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 407 of 708 (737092)
09-16-2014 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Stile
09-16-2014 10:10 AM


Re: Nothing to compare against
If we don't know what "an absolute reality" is supposed to be... how can we possibly identify whether or not the single reality we exist in is an absolute?
You would need to provide knowledge that is currently impossible for you to have (what an 'absolute reality' is supposed to be like).
Provide such knowledge first, and then we can identify whether or not this reality is absolutely real.
My position has been whittled down to the nub of trying to defend the idea that there is such a thing as reality. It surprises me that I should have to work so hard at it.
It doesn't matter what reality ought to be like or if this one is an original or not. Even a fake reality is a real fake. If there isn't a reality then there isn't anything. We perceive something and that's all I need to know for sure. Apparently, it is all probabilities after that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Stile, posted 09-16-2014 10:10 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Stile, posted 09-17-2014 8:35 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 411 by ringo, posted 09-17-2014 12:29 PM Dogmafood has not replied
 Message 412 by 1.61803, posted 09-17-2014 4:14 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 408 of 708 (737099)
09-17-2014 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by Dogmafood
09-16-2014 11:47 PM


Re: Nothing to compare against
ProtoTypical writes:
If there isn't a reality then there isn't anything. We perceive something and that's all I need to know for sure.
Sounds good to me.
Apparently, it is all probabilities after that.
Kind of.
I do actually agree that "if reality is absolutely real, then it is 100% absolutely real."
I would just say that our knowledge of such a thing is all probabilities after that.
Which is more a reflection on the way we currently acquire knowledge as fallible entities then it is a reflection on the "realness" of reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Dogmafood, posted 09-16-2014 11:47 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by Dogmafood, posted 09-17-2014 11:36 AM Stile has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 409 of 708 (737114)
09-17-2014 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by Stile
09-17-2014 8:35 AM


Re: Nothing to compare against
I would just say that our knowledge of such a thing is all probabilities after that.
Perhaps this belongs in the probability thread but how would one calculate the probability of a stone falling to the ground when released from a height?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Stile, posted 09-17-2014 8:35 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Stile, posted 09-17-2014 12:06 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 410 of 708 (737117)
09-17-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by Dogmafood
09-17-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Nothing to compare against
ProtoTypical writes:
...how would one calculate the probability of a stone falling to the ground when released from a height?
One would just have to gather the data from all stones dropping from such a height over all time, past and future, and then see which made it and which didn't.
Since we do not currently have that information, we cannot currently make such a calculation.
I agree that it would be nice to be able to 100% know-for-sure such things.
Unfortunately, reality does not have to conform to our desires.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Dogmafood, posted 09-17-2014 11:36 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Dogmafood, posted 09-17-2014 4:45 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 411 of 708 (737120)
09-17-2014 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Dogmafood
09-16-2014 11:47 PM


Re: Nothing to compare against
ProtoTypical writes:
It surprises me that I should have to work so hard at it.
Building the bridge to the sun was a lot of work too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Dogmafood, posted 09-16-2014 11:47 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 412 of 708 (737127)
09-17-2014 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Dogmafood
09-16-2014 11:47 PM


Re: Nothing to compare against
ProtoTypical writes:
Apparently, it is all probabilities after that.
Or......... every conceivable outcome happens in it's own individual universe. A plethora of realities all equally valid in it's own respective frame of reference. Or not.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Dogmafood, posted 09-16-2014 11:47 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 413 of 708 (737132)
09-17-2014 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Stile
09-17-2014 12:06 PM


Re: Nothing to compare against
One would just have to gather the data from all stones dropping from such a height over all time, past and future, and then see which made it and which didn't.
Since we do not currently have that information, we cannot currently make such a calculation.
If this is right then we wouldn't be able to calculate any probabilities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Stile, posted 09-17-2014 12:06 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Stile, posted 09-18-2014 8:57 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 414 of 708 (737133)
09-17-2014 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by New Cat's Eye
09-15-2014 10:07 AM


Re: A few Queries?!?!?
Seriously, when you started talking about "absolute truth", were you really just talking about tautologies?
Can you give an example of some truth that does not rely on a tautology at it's core?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-15-2014 10:07 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2014 5:13 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 415 of 708 (737138)
09-17-2014 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Dogmafood
09-17-2014 4:47 PM


Re: A few Queries?!?!?
Can you give an example of some truth that does not rely on a tautology at it's core?
I like beer.
Its after 4 o'clock here.
I get to go home soon.
When I get home I'm going to drink a beer.
All 4 of those are true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Dogmafood, posted 09-17-2014 4:47 PM Dogmafood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by 1.61803, posted 09-17-2014 5:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1534 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 416 of 708 (737141)
09-17-2014 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by New Cat's Eye
09-17-2014 5:13 PM


Re: A few Queries?!?!?
Hi Catholic Scientist,
q\
CatSci writes:
I like beer.
Its after 4 o'clock here.
I get to go home soon.
When I get home I'm going to drink a beer.
All 4 of those are true.
I like beer= Subjective
It's after 4 here. = relative
I get to go home soon. =wishful thinking
When I get home I'm going to drink a beer.= prediction

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2014 5:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2014 7:24 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 417 of 708 (737144)
09-17-2014 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by 1.61803
09-17-2014 5:56 PM


As I'm sitting here sipping this beer I'm going: Gee, that didn't make any of those false.
But I did notice the smiley...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by 1.61803, posted 09-17-2014 5:56 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Dogmafood, posted 09-17-2014 9:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 378 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 418 of 708 (737151)
09-17-2014 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by New Cat's Eye
09-17-2014 7:24 PM


As I'm sitting here sipping this beer I'm going: Gee, that didn't make any of those false.
No they are not false but where does the truth come from? It comes from our definitions and all definitions are essentially tautological. If it is true that you like beer then it is only true because you like beer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2014 7:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-18-2014 9:58 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 419 of 708 (737157)
09-18-2014 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by Dogmafood
09-17-2014 4:45 PM


Re: Nothing to compare against
ProtoTypical writes:
If this is right then we wouldn't be able to calculate any probabilities.
That's exactly true.
Can you name a probability that we are able to calculate?
Of course, we can calculate probabilities of things within a system we control. Like drawing a certain card out of a deck of cards.
Without controlling reality (or, at least, knowing all the possibilities) we cannot calculate probabilities.
We can calculate probabilities based on past performance... but they always include that little asterisk since we are currently unable to know the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Dogmafood, posted 09-17-2014 4:45 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by ringo, posted 09-18-2014 1:36 PM Stile has replied
 Message 424 by Dogmafood, posted 09-19-2014 12:25 AM Stile has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 420 of 708 (737159)
09-18-2014 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Dogmafood
09-17-2014 9:39 PM


No they are not false but where does the truth come from? It comes from our definitions and all definitions are essentially tautological. If it is true that you like beer then it is only true because you like beer.
The definitions allow us to make statements. Its when those statements become circular that they become tautological. So, my statement would have to boil down to "Beer is beer", or to be more like the law of noncontradiction: "Beer isn't not-beer".
But simply being made up of defined terms does not make a statement a tautology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Dogmafood, posted 09-17-2014 9:39 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Dogmafood, posted 09-19-2014 12:18 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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