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Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature.... | |||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
You are missing the point. Occam's razor can arguably be used to discern the most likely explanation.
But "most likely" is hardly the route to absolute truth is it?
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Stile writes: For you to convince me that you know everything or convince me that there is no way for you to be wrong. Hi Stile, Having full knowledge of everything is not required.Only having full knowledge of what constitutes death is; in addition to being able to verify such a condition. This should convince you there is no way for me to be wrong. I claimed that death is a absolute. And I can claim with full confidence that if someone meets the criteria of death then they are dead. We can haggle over definitions and such. But eventually we would agree what dead means. This does however come back to tautologies though. Blac "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
What will it take to convince you that death is a absolute? I have no idea, the question is a bit fuzzy. But I know you won't be able to convince me that it is absolutely true that Lester is dead.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Ontology does not recapitulate phylogeny.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Numbers writes: Either way it matters not which reality/proposition. The brain of Lester Moore is the jar next to yours. He is as dead/alive as you are. How can you be absolutely certain this is not the case?
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Well simple, he would be the one with 4 slugs from a 44 in him.
If I was to dig Lester Moore up and verify through what ever criteria you require it is him. Then I could with full confidence declare him dead. Now how could I know we are brains in a vat? I could not as you well know. But so what If two realities are identical and indistinguishable in every way then they are the same for all intents and purposes."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Numbers writes: Now how could I know we are brains in a vat? I could not as you well know. In which case your knowledge is not absolute is it?
Numbers writes: But so what If two realities are identical and indistinguishable in every way then they are the same for all intents and purposes. Indistinguishable to who? You? The evil demon? The architect of the matrix? Lester Moore as his brain sits in the jar next to yours. In his jar he is dreaming of a world where you are dead. He is unable to distinguish this 'dream' from any other form of reality. Are you alive or dead? One's inability to distinguish is what necessarily denies us the absolute knowledge you keep claiming to have access to. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
In which case your knowledge is not absolute is it?
Well would not Occam's Razor allow for a logical discernment?Irregardless, I never claimed absolute knowledge, I only claimed death is absolute. And if there is but one absolute then there could certainly be more. In his jar he is dreaming of a world where you are dead. He is unable to distinguish this 'dream' from any other form of reality. Are you alive or dead? Well as previously stated, in this scenario I am dead, in Lester Moores reality. That is if Lester Moore's reality is such that I am indeed dead. You seem to be suggesting that there is some final, grand reality that trumps all others. I am suggesting a more pragmatic view that for every jar is a reality that is just as valid as the next."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
~1.6 writes:
Biochemical processes don't stop; they only change. There is no "end point" per se.
... metabolically speaking when all bodily metabolic activity has stopped that is absolutely a dead person. And I was not speaking from the concept of a alive to death continuum, but rather from the end point itself. ~1.6 writes:
A few decades ago you would have made the same argument about a person who had stopped breathing. Who knows what medical advances will be made in the next few decades? Reattachment of severed heads? Maybe. If what's "absolute" today is not true tomorrow, how absolute is that?
Now brain dead, cold water drowning and the like I see your point. But decapitation, death by hanging or electrocution those are final and absolute would you agree? Lets say when all human metabolic activity has ceased for say 5 days would you say that is a absolutely dead person? ~1.6 writes:
If he was completely decomposed, I'd say he was pretty certainly dead. Lets say some guy named Lester Moore got a chest full of 4 slugs from a 44 revolver. He stopped breathing, bled out and his heart stopped beating. He was buried and began to decompose. Would you say he was absolutely dead? Absolute zero is absolute. Pretty close to absolute zero is not. Edited by ringo, : Addedspacebetweenwords. Edited by ringo, : Changed erroneous line break to space.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So you are dead in Lester Moore's reality but alive in yours and Lester Moore is dead in your reality but alive in his.
You have just described death-relatavism. The very opposite of any sort of absolute. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Ringo,
Ringo writes: Ummmm... ok but I said metabolic.
Biochemical processes don't stop; they only change. There is no "end point"per se. metabolicˈmetəˈblik/ adjective adjective: metabolic relating to or deriving from the metabolism of a living organism."a metabolic disorder" Maybe. If what's "absolute" today is not true tomorrow, how absolute is that? Well you have a good point there.Except we know that the human body can not survive in a "near absolute" zero temperature. Near absolute freezing is enough to cause a absolute death. And for good measure 212 degrees F is enough to cause a absolute death as well but what the heck a complete incineration should remove any doubt. "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
~1.6 writes:
I know you did. You used the wrong word. There is no magic absolute "point" where metabolic processes cease to be metabolic and become "just" biochemical. Medical science can often reverse the process back into the "metabolic" range.
Ummmm... ok but I said metabolic. ~1.6 writes:
You're mixing your metaphors. I only mentioned absolute zero as an example of something that is absolute. Except we know that the human body can not survive in a "near absolute" zero temperature. But of course we don't "know" what extremes the human body can survive. We have a pretty good idea of what damage our present methods can reverse - and that idea is changing every day.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
So you are dead in Lester Moore's reality but alive in yours and Lester Moore is dead in your reality but alive in his.
According to your scenario.
You have just described death-relatavism. The very opposite of any sort of absolute. Which you should be able to see thatwe can only make claims of knowledge in our own reality. Otherwise things break down into idiotic nonsense. Like we can not have absolute knowledge of certain things such as, if some one is dead or not. "Lester Moore is dead." "How do you know?" "Because he is laying in a grave and it has been forensically verified it is him." "How do you know he is not some brain in a vat dreaming your the one who is dead?" "I don't, but it does not matter because in my reality he is dead." "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Any truth which varies dependent on perspective is relative rather than absolute.
You seem to have inadvertently ended up making the case against absolutism.....
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Are you guys still having fun?
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Straggler writes: No Guv'nr not me. I ended up showing how Cartesian doubt fails to provide adequate reason to doubt the veracity of ones own reality in the absence of any evidence to the contrary. How can the truth be relative if there is nothing to base another perspective on? Can you show me evidence that this demon,vats, brains exist anywhere other than in your own mind? If not then I suggest there is only one reality of which we speak and one Lester Moore who is absolutely dead. You seem to have inadvertently ended up making the case against absolutism....."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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