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Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes:
One quote was from a gospel, however that understanding is also taken from the general context of the entirety of the NT. It was Jesus who redefined how establishing the Kingdom and the rebuilding of the Temple was to be accomplished.
Well, according to your quotes it was the epistle writers who were redefining the idea of Temple - and they were doing it after Jesus had already died and failed to fulfill the requirements to be the Messiah.ringo writes:
Was Napoleon the Anti-Christ? Let's just redefine Anti-Christ to fit Napoleon. Fine if you want to believe in a literal anti-christ.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
GDR writes: I think that by now it is quite clear that JC DID fulfill the messianic prophecies, so it should also be quite clear that he WAS the messiah. You have been shown how he defeated the enemy, (evil), and how he rebuilt the temple, not as a building, but in the hearts of those that are followers of His message of loving others as we love ourselves. ringo writes: Yes. The author(s) used a metaphor to teach and/or encourage the reader that we ourselves can be a temple of the Holy Spirit. Granted some of us metaphorically act more as if our body is a liquor store or a candy shop or a casino...but the idea suggests that we can have God dwell in us. So he built a metaphor, not a temple. Add by Edit: Regarding Daniel 9:17-18: quote:Despite it all being what we do and not by virtue of a free pass, I interpret the sanctuary to be my heart and soul. I can be a "temple" or a sanctuary through what I do...and I don't need to make a big religious show of it either...but I maintain that it goes hand in hand...I am able to do unto others better if my metaphorical representation of my physical body is a sanctuary of Gods presence rather than a liquor store, a candy shop, an internet porn hub, or a casino. Just sayin.... Edited by Phat, : added explanation Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: But as you said, I can use writing in any book in any timeframe and in any context to support a claim. Who are you to determine that a particular book or scroll was meant only for the jews of that time?
And yet the Jews don't accept Jesus as "the Temple" - so you can't use their concept of the Temple to back up your claim.Let's just redefine Anti-Christ to fit Napoleon. Depends on the point that you wish to make. We could redefine anti-christ to fit Donald Trump or we could even show a similarity between Donald Trumps ego and Napoleons. Thats what makes internet conversations so fun. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
GDR writes: I never spend much time worrying about this particular character. I DO believe in a literal Christ as a Messiah. It does not matter(to me) if this literary figure was meant for an entirely different culture and/or people. Fine if you want to believe in a literal anti-christ.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Every once in awhile you come up with a really good post. Its always just when I think you mislead people by telling them that the character of jesus is probably simply a tale told around a campfire. Creedal Christians shouldnt affirm a Creed that is simply a literary plot device on the dusty road of history. take a stand. You have stated that Jesus may not be "the Messiah" now but (you believe) He will be when He returns. I'll make note of that addendum to your belief statement. Jesus is NOT the Jewish Messiah you're looking for. Move along.Jesus will be the Jewish Messiah once He returns, kicks ass and takes names. The Jews got the whole Messiah thing wrong. "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Its always just when I think you mislead people by telling them that the character of jesus is probably simply a tale told around a campfire. Creedal Christians shouldnt affirm a Creed that is simply a literary plot device on the dusty road of history. take a stand. You have stated that Jesus may not be "the Messiah" now but (you believe) He will be when He returns. I'll make note of that addendum to your belief statement.
So many misrepresentations is just one paragraph. I do not tell people "that the character of jesus is probably simply a tale told around a campfire" but rather the lesson to be learned is the same even if that the character of Jesus is simply a tale told around a campfire. The lesson is help the helpless, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, heal the sick, educate the ignorant, protect the weak. And I state categorically that Jesus was not and is not the Jewish Messiah. Rather when Jesus totally failed to fulfill the Jewish Messianic requirements his followers and marketeers revised the list of qualifications needed to be called a Messiah to fit what the character Jesus is said to have done. I point out that to qualify as a Jewish Messiah Jesus will first have to return, establish a literal Jewish Kingdom and rule as a Prince. And why should a Creedal Christian not both affirm a belief while at the same time pointing out the evidence that is reality?My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: "quite clear that JC did fulfill the messianic prophecies." Phat references a wikipedia link for a word definition. That's the evidence. (Is that Daniel verse all he has?) A complete dodge (seems to be his specialty) If he was going to dodge, he could have at least quoted scripture relevant to his complete dodge. While he avoided the main issue, he could have scripture references (with quotes!) for his side-issue. Like Acts 10:28, Peter understands that gentiles are allowed to take part in the Lord's Super without circumcision (Acts 15 showed that the only requirements for salvation were eating Kosher and not fornicating. Gentiles were no longer profane, common, or koinonia) as Acts 10:15 had God showing Peter that gentiles weren't to be considered 4 legged creatures like dogs or, more commonly (called by Jews), pigs.
quote: Then the decision that gentiles didn't need circumcision, only they needed to eat Kosher (which included the humane rules in the Mishnah that required chickens to be slashed in the throat in a careful way to hit the vein, the Old Testament policy of tearing its head off was outlawed. A Pharisaic "tradition" was incorporated in the New Testament for sure when animals couldn't be strangled. The Mishnah says that strangled animals would retain some blood, as it was impossible to drain it properly and not fornicate. See Acts 15:20-29. King Alfred, in 700 A.D., translated the 10 commandments in English and Acts 15:23-29. It seems to have been a law code he implemented (though there is debate on the issue). Aside from the possible translation of a few verses of John, this was the first ever English translation of scripture. An all time mandatory-minimum set of rules were covered in Acts 15:20-29. (with more rules to be added later such as the "vice lists" attest, and Romans 14-15:1 attests) Acts 16 shows that Jewish Christians still had to be circumcised but it was temporary (only for the times). Acts 21 show that the allowance of gentiles to not have to have the circumcision was a burning issue to both Jews and Jewish Christians, that was difficult to tolerate. From Exodus 12.
quote: Romans 12
quote: 1 Corinthians 5
quote: 1 Corinthians chapter 10
quote: 1 Corinthians 11
quote: This was the Passover/Lord's Super issue. Hebrews 10-11 had to do with the other sacrifices. The Deuteronomist source says that all the local altars and sacrifices were outlawed (a contradiction with the rest of the Torah), and Jerusalem was the central sanctuary where offerings had to be made. I'm still waiting for the harmonization of the New Testament with the Old Testament. Where was this foretold? Did any details of the Messiah match? Phat refuses to quote the "Millennium Temple" chapters and verses from the Old Testament with their mention of sacrifices. Care to quote from 1 Isaiah or Ezekiel 40-48 Pat? Care to tell us anything or are you just going to make pronouncements and bald assertions? Phat has a Declaration of Independence (from any requirement to back up his claims with scripture quotes)
quote: Lets see the Old Testament author's text Phat. About the Temple and the sacrifices. Forget the "Holy Spirit part", any quotations from the time of The Prophets (or earlier!) on the "Holy Spirit" will get me banned (will Phat get banned too if he quotes the only pre-200 B.C. references to the Holy Spirit?). Lol. I'm talking about quotes from the Old Testament on the Temple and sacrifices and how they relate to the Messiah and Eschatology. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I want to quote part of Faith's long post just to show the logic. I don't mean to disrespect the entire post by appearing to quote mine from such a very long post, so sorry.
Somebody said "There is not a single text in the Tanach that says that the messiah will be God incarnate." Faith responded.
quote: She then spent a lot (alot!) of time claiming that Jesus fulfilled the law and didn't end it. I wonder if we can focus on these issues below. I put in "Ezekieal 40-48 sacrifices" into google. But among the other google links, I found many good hits and discussion. It was amazing but almost every hit was about New Testament contradictions with what Fundamentalist Christians say and the chapters in Ezekiel. I actually didn't expect the world to be so much in sync with the issue in a way that is so relevant to my point here. This was a good site for showing the issues. http://www.pauls-post-crucifixion-temple-sa.../...uture.html Phat won't address the issues (except for his quoting of the Daniel verses which was really a self-defeating offering if that is ALL Phat has.) Lets address the issues please, and especially with regard to the most relevant Old Testament texts. EDIT For more of the same issues, put into Google this: 2 isaiah millennial prophecy sacrifices Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I haven't been following this thread and I don't know what you are asking me. Could you make it clearer? There's no point in clicking on the links if I don't know what I'm supposed to find out from them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes, and as you point out, that idea may go back as far as Daniel or farther. But it's a separate idea from the Messiah actually rebuilding a physical temple.
The author(s) used a metaphor to teach and/or encourage the reader that we ourselves can be a temple of the Holy Spirit.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Would it be any clearer if I said you can MISuse any book?
But as you said, I can use writing in any book in any timeframe and in any context to support a claim. Phat writes:
Who am I to determine that the owner's handbook for a 1965 Pontiac Parisienne was meant for the owners of 1965 Pontiac Paresiennes? A sane person. You can pretend it was meant for teaching Vietnamese cooking if you want but who's going to take you seriously?
Who are you to determine that a particular book or scroll was meant only for the jews of that time? Phat writes:
Exactly. You can draw a parallel between any two things if you jump through enough hoops. That's my point: You can draw parallels between Jesus and the Messiah by doing the appropriate gymnastics but that doesn't mean the prophets meant Jesus when they said Messiah.
We could redefine anti-christ to fit Donald Trump or we could even show a similarity between Donald Trumps ego and Napoleons.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
So Jesus redefined the prophecies to point to Himself. Is that self-serving at all?
It was Jesus who redefined how establishing the Kingdom and the rebuilding of the Temple was to be accomplished.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: The point is that one cannot find too many eschatological (or otherwise?) clues that indicate the future will be without animal sacrifice, a literal Temple, and 2 comings of the Messiah. The first 2 are the chief concern, so don't worry about the Messiah part (hard to ignore for people on all sides of the debate admittedly - aside from those who selectively ignore every actual issue relevant to the associated debates) Ezekiel 40-48 and the "millennial" Temple (Jews don't seem to have the 1000 year eschatological scheme of Revelation 20 and its 3000 year cousin in the Zoroastrian religion, so the understand term is not going to be used by Jews - i.e. those Jewish individuals who wrote Old Testament books like Ezekiel) seems to be "messianic" , but is very much full of sacrifices and literal language at that. The Temple seems very literal. This website is the best online source on can find, because it is mostly quotes from the text itself, plus offers great selections of the various views and interpretations. I will start quoting the Ezekiel chapters (selected verses) myself if there isn't an attempt to engage the issue by fundamentalist Christians.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: The Bible is full of punishment of sins (often using foreign invasions) coming from God being angry at the people for sinning. A punishing God who removes protection of the capital city. Gee, how original. Ezekiel 35-37 mentions the land and its desolation. Ezekiel 38 mentions the Gog Magog war. (Revelation mentions it and it is interpreted as something yet to happen) Ezekiel 40-48 are the (fundi?) "Christian" interpreted millennial verses, right?
quote: It is full of animal sacrifice and often is interpreted as after our present time. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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What's the point? You think scripture predicts the rebuilding of a literal temple? That's certainly what a lot of people are expecting to happen in the very last days, and some Christian ministries give reports on the progress of preparations for its rebuilding. This is based on taking the OT literally as you apparently do, rather than understanding it in the context of the New Testament as Reformation Protestants do.
From the Protestant point of view there may very well be such a literal rebuilding of the Temple but it would be a terrible mistake because Jesus is the cornerstone of the true temple, of which his followers are living stones. He is also the Sacrifice that really could atone for sin as animal sacrifices could not. See Hebrews 9 and 10. So that to rebuild the Temple and reinstitute animal sacrifices would be terrible blasphemy. That doesn't mean it isn't going to be done, however; it may very well happen. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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