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Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
What sense does that make? "Oh, he really was a real prophet after all." What's the point of confirming that somebody was a real prophet if his prophecies didn't do any good?
If those prophecies are understandable only after the fact, then they do have confirmation power, allowing us to possibly distinguish a real prophet or Messiah from a fake one.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Taq writes: If you get to redefine the enemy, then I could be the Messiah. Anybody could be the Messiah. If you have to redefine the prophecies, then that is sure sign that you didn't fulfill the prophecies. It was a case of redefining the prophesies but simply announcing one cohesive understanding of them. The prophesies weren't dictated word for word by God but had come through centuries of prophets and others trying to determine the nature of there one true God and how they were to respond. Some got it more right than others. Jesus was the fulfillment of the scriptures but not in the way that many had hoped. Edited by GDR, : No reason given.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
ringo writes: There understanding was it seems largely in hind sight but that doesn't make them worthless.
No, they really weren't. As I may have mentioned earlier, a prophecy that nobody can understand is worthless. ringo writes:
Sure. So what. Just because I hope the sun is going to come up tomorrow isn't an indicator that it won't.
The messianic prophecies were fuel for wishful thinking. They gave the Jewish people hope in troubled times. ringo writes: The Second Coming of Jesus is a similar prophecy. It's much like various cults predicting the end of the world - when the predicted date passes, they just move the goalposts. If the Second Coming did happen, no doubt there would be people predicting a Third Coming, when Jesus really, really will make everything better. Once again though. The credibility for the return of Jesus when God renews all things, is all based on the resurrection. If God resurrected Jesus then there is a basis of hope for that renewal. If the resurrection is simply a metaphor then Christianity falls apart and there is no good reason to hope for the renewal of this world. Edited by GDR, : No reason given.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
What sense does that make? "Oh, he really was a real prophet after all." What's the point of confirming that somebody was a real prophet if his prophecies didn't do any good? The idea I'm suggesting is not that hard to grasp. 1. The prophecies regarding Jesus are helpful to folks today who are enabled to understand the Jesus did fulfill them. 2. After the fact, Jesus was confirmed to be the promised Messiah and the Son of God. On that basis, Jesus own prophecies were sufficient to satisfy his peers who heard them. Neither of the above results require us to understand the prophecies at the time they were issued. It is not of much importance what credit those folk received at the time. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
What I said was that a prophecy is worthless if it can only be understood correctly in hindsight. At best, the hindsight interpretation is a little extra something that can be learned from the prophecy. It is not in and of itself a fulfillment of the prophecy.
There understanding was it seems largely in hind sight but that doesn't make them worthless. GDR writes:
Just because you hope to win the lottery tomorrow doesn't mean you will - and hope doesn't change the odds.
Just because I hope the sun is going to come up tomorrow isn't an indicator that it won't. GDR writes:
Not at all. The basis for renewing things is Jesus' message, not His person.
The credibility for the return of Jesus when God renews all things, is all based on the resurrection. GDR writes:
Unfortunately, that's all too true for some Christians because they've turned Christianity into a cult of personality where the medium is more important than the message. Jesus said that renewal of this world is our responsibility.
If the resurrection is simply a metaphor then Christianity falls apart and there is no good reason to hope for the renewal of this world.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
It isn't hard to grasp. It's hard to swallow.
The idea I'm suggesting is not that hard to grasp. NoNukes writes:
On the contrary, it isn't of much importance what credit the prophets receive today - or even at the time of Christ - because the time of the prophecy had already come and gone
It is not of much importance what credit those folk received at the time.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
ringo writes: What I said was that a prophecy is worthless if it can only be understood correctly in hindsight. At best, the hindsight interpretation is a little extra something that can be learned from the prophecy. It is not in and of itself a fulfillment of the prophecy. But it isn't that there was only one prophesy that covered this. The understanding came after Jesus' resurrection which then had people like Paul combing through what Jesus had said and through the Jewish scriptures. Jesus wasn't primarily a fulfillment of a prophesy as He was the fulfillment of the whole Israel narrative.
ringo writes:
Sure, but there is no reason to give more credibility to Jesus than there is to anyone else you might want to name without the resurrection. For that matter, without the resurrection Jesus is a delusional failed messiah.
Not at all. The basis for renewing things is Jesus' message, not His person. GDR writes: If the resurrection is simply a metaphor then Christianity falls apart and there is no good reason to hope for the renewal of this world.ringo writes: Unfortunately, that's all too true for some Christians because they've turned Christianity into a cult of personality where the medium is more important than the message. Jesus said that renewal of this world is our responsibility. I'm not sure what you mean by a cult of personality but we are somewhat on the same page. Jesus' message is critical and the message is that He is calling us to continue His Kingdom work of spreading God's love, peace, justice to the world as my signature says. We are called to live out our lives in that way and to, for lack of a better term, infect the world with God's love, ahead of the time when God completes the project. Resurrection is planned for all creation at the end of time,and God has resurrected the one man Jesus within time. (This at least is my understanding of that aspect of the Christian message.) I'm paraphrasing but the Bible tells us that God will unite His universe/dimension with our own. How that is going to look is well above my pay grade. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
That makes it worse, not better. One prophecy that actually fits is better than a dozen that have to be twisted to fit.
But it isn't that there was only one prophesy that covered this. GDR writes:
So full circle again: you need the resurrection to justify your twisting of prophecy.
... there is no reason to give more credibility to Jesus than there is to anyone else you might want to name without the resurrection. GDR writes:
Only to you. It's the same as the creationists sayng that without a literal 6-day creation the whole Bible is worthless. It's your poor interpretation that causes the problem.
For that matter, without the resurrection Jesus is a delusional failed messiah. GDR writes:
None of which requires Jesus to be the Messiah or to be resurected. The mesage has the same value with or without the delivery boy.
Jesus' message is critical and the message is that He is calling us to continue His Kingdom work of spreading God's love, peace, justice to the world as my signature says. We are called to live out our lives in that way and to, for lack of a better term, infect the world with God's love, ahead of the time when God completes the project.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
On the contrary, it isn't of much importance what credit the prophets receive today That is not contrary to what I said. I agree that the importance of the prophets both before and after their predictions is a minor idea. The reputation of those prophets invariable comes from sources other than knowing that they are right about future events. In fact many prophets are disbelieved at the time of making their prophecies. The Messiah is way more important than are the prophets who presaged his coming. Confirmation after the fact is useful for establishing that. Jesus then made prophecies himself. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Perhaps this should be in its own thread, but here was a recent discovery. This site had a positive spin on this discovery. A suffering and dying messiah? The Blaze site will cause computers to crash, so that is too bad. I still havnt been able to read the entire article text on the site due to the crashing it causes.
quote: Here is a direct link to a translation of text. Attention Required! | Cloudflare AP story link. The Associated Press - Video, photo, text, audio, data news agency I have been attempting a post for the last few days on this discovery, but the crashing computer keeps preventing me. One interesting issue to consider is that Jesus was in the tomb from Friday to Sunday, so that isn't 3 days and three nights. It was 3 different days (part of Friday, all of Saturday, and part of Sunday) but not 3 days and 3 nights. So theinteresting thing is that the crucifix event and its description did seem like it was possibly an attempted match-up with an precise prophecy floating around late 2nd Temple Jewish circles. Every now and then we learn, through discoveries, that there are prophecies that the New Testament authors reference, but which we simply don't have (or didn't have before) Look at Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Nevermind. Computer won't let me quote it (sigh) as it is freezing and crashing. I give up. About the only thing i can do is type here, lets see if my message sends.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Matthew 12:40 has Jesus say that there will be 3 days and nights in the grave for the rising Messiah.
1 Corinthians 15 (around verses 3-4) has a 3 day prophecy (without the 3 nights) referenced. It says "according to the scripture" (or close to that) and "scripture" always means the pre-New Testament (usually Old Testament though not always confined to what makes up the "Old Testament" today). One has to wonder if there are multiple Dead Dead Scroll type texts (if any) with different details. To make matters more confusing, the Gospels present the Apostles as ignorant of a dying & rising Messiah, while it has the Jewish leaders as aware. Apologist William Lane Craig says that the guard of the tomb in Matthew (absent the other 3 gospels) is irrelevant as an apologetic argument because modern scholars no longer propose that the Apostles stole the body. He says that modern scholarship rejects the guard as historical, so he doesn't use it while making his arguments. He feels that the guard is historical and that it was a Jewish, not a Roman, guard. That would raise even more questions about how many people were expecting a rising Messiah. The whole issue of scripture predicting a dying and rising Messiah has always been confusing, because Hosea 5 would have been a closer parallel than the Jonah story. Many confusing issues, but there have been discoveries this decade that cause one to hold the possibility that there were intertestamental texts that had the details. How widely held they were is another issue.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
1 Corinthians 15 (around verses 3-4) has a 3 day prophecy (without the 3 nights) referenced. It says "according to the scripture" The text claims that it is the dying that was according to scripture and not the details of the resurrection. After all, the rest of the events described include things that were not predicted in pre New Testament scripture including Jesus appearance to Paul. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
LNA writes: Matthew 12:40 has Jesus say that there will be 3 days and nights in the grave for the rising Messiah.1 Corinthians 15 (around verses 3-4) has a 3 day prophecy (without the 3 nights) referenced. It says "according to the scripture" (or close to that) and "scripture" always means the pre-New Testament (usually Old Testament though not always confined to what makes up the "Old Testament" today). One has to wonder if there are multiple Dead Dead Scroll type texts (if any) with different details. To make matters more confusing, the Gospels present the Apostles as ignorant of a dying & rising Messiah, while it has the Jewish leaders as aware. Read this scripture. What does it tell you?
John 5:37-40 writes:
In other words, the truth is not going to be found by studying the scriptures themselves...no matter how many old books and scrolls you happen to examine. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Phat said this:
quote: But Paul seemed to be using this 3 day resurrection as an issue relevant to the resurrected spiritual body. He said that there was "scripture" (ie. pre-Jesus) that described this. The Gospel of Matthew has Jewish leaders instigating a need for guards to be placed over the tomb of Jesus in order to make sure that he didn't get his body snatched; which means that they had scripture telling of a rising messiah.
quote: Apologists say that Paul is using living witnesses to back up an event they witnessed. But it is part of an overall "gospel" story that indicates an expectation of a dying and rising after 3 days (and nights in Matthew) as something prophetic. Hosea 6:1-4 has a national restoration.
quote: Ezekiel 35-37 and the valley of dry bones is an interesting parallel. Here is a link that found a specific text (albeit not put into writing till about 900 A.D., though based on older material) that has a specific 3 day and 3 night body resurrection theme associated with the eschatology and the afterlife. It happens to be Zoroastrian. How far back it goes is a matter of debate. Academia.edu I put "3 days 3 nights resurrection afterlife Zoroastrian" into Google I look for whatever light I can find to help us learn what was going on. We have a different approach.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I put "3 days 3 nights resurrection afterlife Zoroastrian" into Google And what are you trying to find? He is as plain as the nose on your face. I look for whatever light I can find to help us learn what was going on. We have a different approach.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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