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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Tangle
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Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 134 of 908 (671376)
08-24-2012 4:47 PM


Is there any reason why we allow the fallacy of the micro and macro evolution argument to continue?
As far as I'm aware, science has no use for the terms as neither condition actually exists; there's simply evolution where a cumulation of small changes can eventually lead to what we call a distinct species - a purely arbitrary condition.
How about we bin both terms and move on?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 148 of 908 (671496)
08-26-2012 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Big_Al35
08-26-2012 3:10 PM


Re: So, Big_Al35, what is MACROevolution?
BigAl writes:
Here is another example which illustrates my point that even articles discussing macroevolution in bacteria are unsure about the definition and indicate that it might just aswell be called microevolution.
You mean that some random egit from a Christian ministry says this:
Question: Are scientists actually observing macroevolution as it happens in bacteria?
Response: That depends on how "macroevolution" is defined. Scientists have seen bacteria exchange genetic material. They have seen bacteria become antibiotic resistant. They have seen bacteria become bigger from mutations. But have they ever seen bacteria become anything other than bacteria? No. Have they ever seen one type of bacteria, such as E.coli, become some other type of bacteria that is not (in this case) E.coli? No, they haven't. In fact, with over a hundred years of work with E.coli behind us, (at 20 minutes per generation time, that's over 2 1/5 MILLION generations of E.coli minimum that have been witnessed), and despite forcing or encouraging mutations, they still cannot get anything but E.coli. So it's your call. Is that macroevolution? By some evolutionists' standards it qualifies.
Yup, bacteria are still bacteria. Weird that.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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 Message 145 by Big_Al35, posted 08-26-2012 3:10 PM Big_Al35 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 161 of 908 (810225)
05-25-2017 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by CRR
05-25-2017 6:35 PM


Re: Definitions (or not)
Aaargh! I did a degree in Zoology without ever hearing the terms - it's irrelevant hair-spitting. Just a smoke screen for creationist to avoid discussing how organisms got to be the way they are. Our definitions are just catch-alls that life itself ignores and laughs at by chucking up huge numbers of discrepancies that defy categorisation.
Get beyond the semantics and study the life behind them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by CRR, posted 05-25-2017 6:35 PM CRR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 164 of 908 (810230)
05-25-2017 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by CRR
05-25-2017 8:00 PM


Re: reviving this thread ...
CRR writes:
The changes that have occurred in the Indo-European language family, for example, demonstrate that languages follow a ‘downhill’ simplification in inflections, etc. by natural processes
What nonsense. Languages change, by deletions and additions. The number of words in the English language has had to increase to encompass technololgy, medicine, industrialisation and globalism, whilst defunct words from passed ways of life go exinct. It's just change over time - nothing to do with 'information' loss or gain.
ABE - having a spare hour I found that English language words are added at a rate of around 5,400 per year. By a number of methods, many of which you could call mutation.
quote:
All new words are created by one of 13 mechanisms:
1 Derivation
The commonest method of creating a new word is to add a prefix or suffix to an existing one. Hence realisation (1610s), democratise (1798), detonator (1822), preteen (1926), hyperlink (1987) and monogamish (2011).
2 Back formation
The inverse of the above: the creation of a new root word by the removal of a phantom affix. The noun sleaze, for example, was back-formed from sleazy in about 1967. A similar process brought about pea, liaise, enthuse, aggress and donate. Some linguists propose a separate category for lexicalisation, the turning of an affix into a word (ism, ology, teen), but it’s really just a type of back formation.
3 Compounding
The juxtaposition of two existing words. Typically, compound words begin life as separate entities, then get hitched with a hyphen, and eventually become a single unit. It’s mostly nouns that are formed this way (fiddlestick, claptrap, carbon dating, bailout), but words from other classes can be smooshed together too: into (preposition), nobody (pronoun), daydream (verb), awe-inspiring, environmentally friendly (adjectives).
4 Repurposing
Taking a word from one context and applying it to another. Thus the crane, meaning lifting machine, got its name from the long-necked bird, and the computer mouse was named after the long-tailed animal.
5 Conversion
Taking a word from one word class and transplanting it to another. The word giant was for a long time just a noun, meaning a creature of enormous size, until the early 15th century, when people began using it as an adjective. Thanks to social media, a similar fate has recently befallen friend, which can now serve as a verb as well as a noun (Why didn’t you friend me?).
6 Eponyms
Words named after a person or place. You may recognise Alzheimer’s, atlas, cheddar, alsatian, diesel, sandwich, mentor, svengali, wellington and boycott as eponyms — but did you know that gun, dunce, bigot, bugger, cretin, currant, hooligan, marmalade, maudlin, maverick, panic, silhouette, syphilis, tawdry, doggerel, doily and sideburns are too? (The issue of whether, and for how long, to retain the capital letters on eponyms is a thorny one.)
7 Abbreviations
An increasingly popular method. There are three main subtypes: clippings, acronyms and initialisms. Some words that you might not have known started out longer are pram (perambulator), taxi/cab (both from taximeter cabriolet), mob (mobile vulgus), goodbye (God be with you), berk (Berkshire Hunt), rifle (rifled pistol), canter (Canterbury gallop), curio (curiosity), van (caravan), sport (disport), wig (periwig), laser (light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation), scuba (self-contained underwater breathing apparatus), and trump (triumph. Although it’s worth noting that there’s another, unrelated sense of trump: to fabricate, as in trumped-up charge).
8 Loanwords
Foreign speakers often complain that their language is being overrun with borrowings from English. But the fact is, English itself is a voracious word thief; linguist David Crystal reckons it’s half-inched words from at least 350 languages. Most words are borrowed from French, Latin and Greek; some of the more exotic provenances are Flemish (hunk), Romany (cushty), Portuguese (fetish), Nahuatl (tomato — via Spanish), Tahitian (tattoo), Russian (mammoth), Mayan (shark), Gaelic (slogan), Japanese (tycoon), West Turkic (horde), Walloon (rabbit) and Polynesian (taboo). Calques (flea market, brainwashing, loan word) are translations of borrowings.
9 Onomatopeia
The creation of a word by imitation of the sound it is supposed to make. Plop, ow, barf, cuckoo, bunch, bump and midge all originated this way.
10 Reduplication
The repetition, or near-repetition, of a word or sound. To this method we owe the likes of flip-flop, goody-goody, boo-boo, helter-skelter, picnic, claptrap, hanky-panky, hurly-burly, lovey-dovey, higgledy-piggledy, tom-tom, hip hop and cray-cray. (Willy-nilly, though, came to us via a contraction of Will he, nill he.)
11 Nonce words
Words pulled out of thin air, bearing little relation to any existing form. Confirmed examples are few and far between, but include quark (Murray Gell-Mann), bling (unknown) and fleek (Vine celebrity Kayla Newman).
12 Error
Misspellings, mishearings, mispronunciations and mistranscriptions rarely produce new words in their own right, but often lead to new forms in conjunction with other mechanisms. Scramble, for example, seems to have originated as a variant of scrabble; but over time, the two forms have taken on different meanings, so one word has now become two. Similarly, the words shit and science, thanks to a long sequence of shifts and errors, are both ultimately derived from the same root. And the now defunct word helpmeet, or helpmate, is the result of a Biblical boo-boo. In the King James version, the Latin adjutorium simile sibi was rendered as an help meet for him — that is, a helper suitable for him. Later editors, less familiar with the archaic sense of meet, took the phrase to be a word, and began hyphenating help-meet.
13 Portmanteaus
Compounding with a twist. Take one word, remove an arbitrary portion of it, then put in its place either a whole word, or a similarly clipped one. Thus were born sitcom, paratroops, internet, gazunder and sexting. (Note: some linguists call this process blending and reserve the term portmanteau for a particular subtype of blend. But since Lewis Carroll, who devised this sense of portmanteau, specifically defined it as having the broader meaning, I’m going to use the terms willy-nilly.)
Some words came about via a combination of methods: yuppie is the result of initialism ((y)oung and (up)wardly mobile) plus derivation (+ -ie); berk is a clipped eponym (Berkshire hunt); cop, in the sense of police officer, is an abbreviation of a derivation (copper derives from the northern British dialect verb cop, meaning to catch); and snarl-up is a conversion (verb to noun) of a compound (snarl + up).
The popularity of the various methods has waxed and waned through the ages. For long periods (1100-1500 and 1650-1900), borrowings from French were in vogue. In the 19th century, loanwords from Indian languages (bangle, bungalow, cot, juggernaut, jungle, loot, shampoo, thug) were the cat’s pyjamas. There was even a brief onslaught from Dutch and Flemish.
In the 20th century, quite a few newbies were generated by derivation, using the -ie (and -y) suffix: talkies, freebie, foodie, hippy, roomie, rookie, roofie, Munchie, Smartie, Crunchie, Furby, scrunchie. Abbreviations, though, were the preferred MO, perhaps because of the necessity in wartime of delivering your message ASAP. The passion for initialisms seems to be wearing off, perhaps because things have got a little confusing; PC, for example, can now mean politically correct, police constable, per cent, personal computer, parsec, post cibum, peace corps, postcard, professional corporation or printed circuit.
How new words are born | Andy Bodle | The Guardian
I'm particularly fond of:
and trump (triumph. Although it’s worth noting that there’s another, unrelated sense of trump: to fabricate, as in trumped-up charge).
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by CRR, posted 05-25-2017 8:00 PM CRR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 189 of 908 (810898)
06-03-2017 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by CRR
06-02-2017 10:55 PM


Re: The "foram" subphylum
CRR writes:
You introduced them to the discussion. Since you're not willing to back it up I'll just assume we can neglect this as relevant to the discussion.
The thing about real science is that if you actually want to you can find anything you need to just by looking. Here's the World Foramifera Database.
Foraminifera - The World Foraminifera Database
This comprises all the know species along with the biologist that described them. Now, as an armchair paeleontologist you'll no doubt dispute individual organisms and their place in the taxa, in which case you need to take that up with the Editors as that's what they're there for. So far they have upwards of 36,000 species.
So what exactly is your point of dispute - just more semantics?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by CRR, posted 06-02-2017 10:55 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by CRR, posted 06-03-2017 4:05 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 242 of 908 (816848)
08-12-2017 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Faith
08-12-2017 3:27 AM


Re: Faith gets it wrong again
Faith writes:
That can't happen.
And yet it does!
So, when confronted with a disproven hypothesis, what does the honest scientist do?
Anybody who honestly thinks it through should recognize that the loss of genetic diversity brought about by the processes of microevolution that produce new varieties, races and species, has to bring evolution to an end.
And yet it hasn't!
So, when confronted with a disproven hypothesis, what does the honest scientist do?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 08-12-2017 3:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 680 of 908 (817951)
08-22-2017 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 669 by DOCJ
08-21-2017 8:55 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
DOCJ writes:
I don't believe the flood was 4500 years ago.
Well you'd be correct about that but are you sure it's biblical?
In an article written by a certain Doc J(ohn), Creation.com has it at 4,285 years ago.
The Date of Noah’s Flood - creation.com

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 8:55 PM DOCJ has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 828 of 908 (818262)
08-25-2017 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 826 by Faith
08-25-2017 4:28 PM


Re: What Really Happens
My theory is SO elegant, so consistent, so fine, and SO unappreciated, alas
And so....bigly!
Maybe I hoped for too much, too soon. But I really thought that the age of the rational was upon us. Or maybe I'm just seeing its death thoes. We can only hope.
Faith, you have absolutely no comprehension of what you would need to do to demonstrate that an idea about our natural world is valid. None. You think that without any education in a subject that has been extensively studied and critiqued for decades and by inventing ad hoc propositions without evidence whilst selectively ignoring evidence and by starting with a supernatural conclusion you, and you alone, Have found the answer?
You're the definition of the word 'delusion'. The archetype.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by Faith, posted 08-25-2017 4:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 830 by Faith, posted 08-25-2017 5:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 834 of 908 (818268)
08-25-2017 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 830 by Faith
08-25-2017 5:43 PM


Re: What Really Happens
Faith writes:
Oh I know what it would take .......and would pounce on it if it came my way, fear not.
I've seperated those two phrases with '......' because it demonstrates your total lack of understanding of how the accumulation of knowledge works.
The opportunity to demonstrate the veracity of your ideas are there right now. Right now, today, you could let the world know about your break-though in evolutionary science by simply submitting your thesis plus evidence supporting it to Nature.
They would review it, have a few recognised experts in relevant field poke it around a bit and then, inevitably, publish it. You'd collect your Nobel prize within 3 years. No problem.
So what's stopping you? Is it perhaps that you're still working on your paper that disproves modern geology? Or maybe you feel that your ideas on molecular biology are just a little too ahead of their time? God knows it's hard to pick which parts of modern science are the most mistaken.
Maybe you just don't have the funding to carry out all this original research in you laboratory - I know you must be pretty pushed for space amonst all those autoclaves and thermal cyclers to come up with new hardware to show that radio carbon dating is just fuck-off wrong.
But what the hell, you just have to pick one, prove the entirety of science in that area wrong and move onto the next one. Piece if cake really, it's just about focus.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Faith, posted 08-25-2017 5:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 854 of 908 (818298)
08-26-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 853 by Faith
08-26-2017 10:48 AM


Faith writes:
you can't have an original thought because evo theory says something else.
A couple of years ago a woman said the most hurtful thing that's ever been said to me. I was doing a Master's degree in a science subject and I'd submitted two pieces of work. One got 73% the other 74%. To get a distinction you needed 75%. I had three more pieces of work to submit so I asked how I could get the other 1 or 2%. She said:
"You have to say something original."
The idea that you can't have ideas is as wrong as you can possibly be. To accumulate scientific knowledge, new ideas are essential, but - and this is the bit your missing - they have to be backed by evidence, real facts that others can test. You have never ever done that. You just have an idea that suits your belief and call it a fact. That's why you hear the phrase 'prove it' so often. New ideas are the bedrock of scientific advancement, but they must be able to survive factual challenge. Yours can't. Has there been at any time over the years you've been here a non-YEC that said you've come up with anything valid and original?
The second thing you're missing is that the new idea mustn't be bat-shit crazily, easily provably wrong. The problem you have is that these 'new' ideas of yours are actually very old ideas that have been shown to be wrong many, many times. You don't have the knowledge, training or motivation to develop rational ideas that can hold their ground. If your starting point is always religious, you'll never have anything valid to say.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 10:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 855 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 11:32 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 858 of 908 (818303)
08-26-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 855 by Faith
08-26-2017 11:32 AM


Faith writes:
SO many ways there are to state the status quo without bothering to think about the challenges to it.
If you're trying to prove the world wrong, you have to do it with evidence. It's simple really.
ABE: And I'm quite sure that very little if anything I've said is an old idea.
Of course you are. And of course you're wrong about that too.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by Faith, posted 08-26-2017 11:32 AM Faith has not replied

  
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