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Author | Topic: Charismatic Chaos | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Hypothetically, what would you do if reality proved that ultimately God was alive through the Holy Spirit, only a few stumbled upon this truth (either by accident or design) and the believers had a handicap of ignorance while the truly smart ones didn't allow themselves to believe in such a God? Sheesh Phat. Why do you keep posting such silly, silly stuff. If something is supported by sufficient evidence then I accept that it is supported.
Phat writes: In other words, what if its not simply what we *do* but on how we treat each other and find a communion to relate to such a God? Or would you simply laugh in His face? Would we be judged on how we treated the planet and tried to preserve life for others? Would we be judged on how we reacted to money? Would we be judged based on how we responded to God as we understood Him? Only the conmen and snake oil salesmen even try to market answers to such questions. Nobody knows Phat and no one alive will ever know. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So, in essence, you have confirmed your belief. Correct me if I misrepresent it.
Essentially, you believe that nobody can ever know God. Your idea of belief centers on what you believe happens after you die. You believe that God is unknowable. All Christians who do not acknowledge your "obvious" logic are duped by conmen. In reality, they are fooling themselves. Got it. No wonder we always disagree.
If something is supported by sufficient evidence then I accept that it is supported. Believers have sufficient evidence based on experience.Though we acknowledge "conmen" in organized religion, we in no way agree with you that it is so widespread as to include everyone that believes God is alive through Christ. The fact is that there will never be evidence in the scientific sense. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Essentially, you believe that nobody can ever know God. No Phat, I have said repeatedly that no one has ever expained how someone could know God and that all the evidence shows that people describe entirely different critters as being God.
Phat writes: Your idea of belief centers on what you believe happens after you die. No Phat, I believe that there is a GOD, creator of all seen and unseen and that I will be judged after I die.
Phat writes: You believe that God is unknowable. No Phat, I acknowledge that no one has ever explained how it might be possible to know God.
Phat writes: All Christians who do not acknowledge your "obvious" logic are duped by conmen. No Phat, those who buy the snake oil that directly contradicts what is actually written in the Bible or who make claims that cannot be verified are willingly being suckers.
Phat writes: In reality, they are fooling themselves. Final, you did get one correct.
Phat writes: Believers have sufficient evidence based on experience. Yet they do not ever present any evidence. Edited by jar, : applin spallin
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And you interpreted your experience the way you were taught to interpret it.
...it is not because of what we were taught so much as it is what we experienced. Phat writes:
And you simply can't grasp the idea that IF God exists, it would be an immense coincidence if He happened to be anything like the God you learned about.
They simply can't grasp the idea that God may be the same globally, Phat writes:
Among most groups of believers there is little controversy - Mormons, Scientologists, etc. One of the hallmarks of a cult is lack of controversy.
... but among these believers, there is little if any controversy. Phat writes:
Nonsense. Because there is only one explanation."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
...it is not because of what we were taught so much as it is what we experienced.ringo writes:
No, we interpreted our experience based on what we felt while experiencing it. You can easily teach a parishioner to jump up and down and act excited, but you cannot give them the will to do it. That is up to how they feel about the experience.
And you interpreted your experience the way you were taught to interpret it.Phat writes:
They simply can't grasp the idea that God may be the same globally,And you simply can't grasp the idea that IF God exists, it would be an immense coincidence if He happened to be anything like the God you learned about. What if He sought us out? After all, there is really only one of him. It's not like we are in a Hollywood audition where a roomful of Gods awaits approval. We experienced God. Of course, we know that He is more than we have been taught. Our intuition and shared experience, coupled with positive testimonies the world over convince us that God is good rather than schizophrenic and evil as you suggest scripture itself supports.
Among most groups of believers there is little controversy - Mormons, Scientologists, etc. One of the hallmarks of a cult is lack of controversy. Yet you cant label 2 billion Christians, or perhaps 500,000 of them who agree that Jesus is alive today, as a cult.
Phat writes:
Because there is only one explanation.Nonsense I'd like to hear others. I will then tell you whether I would consider them acceptable. We choose our beliefs and become the decisions that we make. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's circular.
No, we interpreted our experience based on what we felt while experiencing it. Phat writes:
On the contrary, it is much easier to encourage somebody to fit in by conforming with everybody else.
You can easily teach a parishioner to jump up and down and act excited, but you cannot give them the will to do it. Phat writes:
As I have said before, you'd have to have a monumental ego to believe that a god would seek you out and ignore billions of others.
What if He sought us out? Phat writes:
That has not been established. There's nothing in your "experiences" to indicate that. It's just something that your handlers have told you to parrot.
After all, there is really only one of him. Phat writes:
You experienced something. So did Muhammad. There's no reason to think your experience was different from his.
We experienced God. Phat writes:
And yet you don't even try to support your claim.
... God is good rather than schizophrenic and evil as you suggest scripture itself supports. Phat writes:
I'm not. I'm labellng your version as a cult.
Yet you cant label 2 billion Christians, or perhaps 500,000 of them who agree that Jesus is alive today, as a cult. Phat writes:
The context is Message 335: "This is what bugs me most about believers. If there are things in life that are "unexplained", why do you insist on explaining them? And why do you refuse to accept any explanation but your own?" Because there is only one explanation.
ringo writes:
I'd like to hear others. Nonsense Some other explanations include
Phat writes:
Nobody cares what you consider acceptable. I will then tell you whether I would consider them acceptable."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: I will then tell you whether I would consider them acceptable. Neither truth or reality care whether or not you find them acceptable. Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Neither truth nor reality is represented by anyone other than those involved.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
Yet you cant label 2 billion Christians, or perhaps 5 million of them who agree that Jesus is alive today, interacts through prayer, and seeks to teach us more about reality, as a cult.ringo writes: Oh so its *my* version now, is it? Based on my experience and on my own studies and conclusions, my explanation is what I will go with. No need to change horses in the middle of a stream.
I'm not. I'm labeling your version as a cult.ringo writes: Unlikely but hypothetically possible. Your side rejects them all en masse including my version, and my side rejects all but Jesus
The context is Message 335.Some other explanations include ringo writes: admittedly possible. More study is needed in this area. For now, aliens are simply unevidenced and unexplained. I consider many of such sightings demonic, but that is my own subjective conclusion.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : further 'splaininThe only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Neither truth nor reality is represented by anyone other than those involved. WHAT? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever Phat. It does not even rise to the level of word salad.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Well, to be honest, I fired off a reply without thinking.
Phat, replying to ringo writes: Truth or lies? Have I again misrepresented the great state of texas? Those Socratic masters taught you to think,(as did Joe Woods) which you encourage me to do...but one reason I stick to my guns on my basic belief is because of my all-too-real experiences and several confirmation biased events. Granted I prefer fantasy over reality, but I have a sneaky suspicion that this whole Armageddon, last days, the war of ideology stuff could pan out to be basically true. And again, I prefer a supernatural answer rather than a sobering and depressing answer such as "the bill will get paid even if many Americans suffer" and "The world will find us useful as gardeners, chauffers, and cooks". In my mind, you and jar both suppressed belief because you were taught to only have evidence of supportable belief.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And one further note: The Bill basically can't get paid without upending the entire financial system. Look at the evidence and crunch the numbers.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: The Bill basically can't get paid without upending the entire financial system. There are two ways the bill can be paid Phat, only one of those two ways is financial. The other way and the way it seems the US desires is through pain and suffering. But INMP!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
But INMP! Oh yes, it is, or it will be when your money becomes as inflated and worthless as everyone else. You too will have to suffer a bit, but you have prepared better than most.
jar writes: Yes, it looks as if though there will be a lot of pain and suffering in the future. And I don't mean to sound all gloom and doom, as Tangle thinks all religious nutters are. I'm just realizing that the era in which I grew up, 1960-1990, was one of the most stable and prosperous eras in human history. (for a white male living in the United States.) And my family was never classified as wealthy. I can identify with the sociological forces that led to Populism and the rise of Trump. There are two ways the bill can be paid Phat, only one of those two ways is financial. The other way and the way it seems the US desires is through pain and suffering. Though I don't really like or respect Trump, my Father would have likely loved him. When you couple these people--the Populists--with the religious Right, an earlier group founded on merging Biblical Christianity with Partisan Politics, you begin to see why Faith likes and respects Trump so much. It is about preserving the suburban fantasy of making America Great Again, as it was in the times in which I grew up. Personally, I am torn between preserving the fantasy and hoping that if reality must change, God owes it to us to help us accept the change knowing that He has the wheel. A deep and uneasy awareness tells me that I may be wrong on both counts. We have discussed this stuff too many times to count here at EvC. I enjoy discussing it only because I hope that I can change the minds of those who have thrown my God away. It would be nice if He came back in my life(time) and rewarded me with a safe and stable eternity. I really don't want to be supportive of white privilege, but I also don't want to be cast aside and marginalized and have to suffer the way that many ethnic people from many other nations and kingdoms have had to suffer for the past 500 years. But I take your arguments thoughtfully if not agreeably. Why should God favor me and my contemporaries who lived during the aberration? I reason that he should because He can and because the sins of our fathers were and are not our fault. You have argued that this attitude proves that I create the God I want, but I honestly believe that I have met God and that I am well aware that there is no way that He is exactly as I would think Him to be or as my society defined him as. What scares me is how different He may end up being. Of course, I don't believe as you do that He is complete. (Having good and evil attributes) and I don't care what scriptures you run past me regarding that. I believe in the ultimate good and ultimate justice. Honestly though, what scares me is that my own dogma which you usually laugh at shows me that there is a possibility that my nation will be judged and has heaped up and is heaping up a multitude of sins against humanity. Faith will argue that America has also done a lot of good in the world and that it is the evil leftists who push the other philosophy. As of now, while I agree that there are evil people in the world, I am unconvinced that they are any more Left than Right. They come in all shapes and sizes. Comments? Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : fixing a few glitchesThe only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Oh yes, it is, or it will be when your money becomes as inflated and worthless as everyone else. You too will have to suffer a bit, but you have prepared better than most. No Phat, I'm already well past the life expectancy of a male in the US so INMP. But as long as you and those like you continue to choose the pain option over the financial one, that will be how the bill gets paid.
Phat writes: I reason that he should because He can and because the sins of our fathers were and are not our fault. That's a comforting fantasy, isn't it?
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