Islamic jihad: the genocide in the Sudan

How very horrible. Looks like those particular adherants of Islam are blinded by their fundamentalism to the point that they would institute their own form of the Inquisition.Now we don't blame all the people who were not in Spain and who also were practicing Christianity dutifully with the horrors of that terrible incident in history do we?I can only assume that is why you brought all this up here.To me all it is just another terrible example of why no fundamentalist dogma should even be allowed to govern the people. It makes me very sad for those suffering under its grip. It makes me even sadder for those would use such attrocities as a method to justify hatred and wash an entire peace loving people in a stigma of evil in the face of total hypocricy.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Your never going to get an admission that adherance to old testament philosophy drives beliefs today but that being said, it is equally hard to get certain debaters to recognize that there is difference stemming from the new testament. Failure to recognize this just fuels the fundamentalist fire because it looks like you are equivocating.Christianity and Islam are different even within themselves. The most barbaric call to arms comes from the old testament. Islam prescribes violence in situations of self-defense. Christianity then switches gears to "turn thy cheek" philosophy in the new testament.They ARE different and to logically group them only serves to confuse and produce a failure to discuss the real issues. For example, people like randman, Faith, CanadianSteve, and buzzsaw will disagree to the ends of the earth that Islam only prescribes defensive violence. That is what the debate should focus on instead of what has been happening lately which is that people let the discussion move on from that point. What is happening in Sudan is not driven by the Koran. There is nothing in the Koran saying it is okay to rape, mutilate, torture, and murder innocent people. But just because the minority of people doing this happen to claim they are doing so in the name of Islam randman would have you believe that this is proof positive that Islam is the driver of this rather than good old fashioned hate, intollerance, and world politics as usual.Humanity hasn't changed much overall and the couple of centuries seperating this from the Inquisition does not erase the fact that it was a bastardization of Christianity that caused that too.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

No, just that you might be whitewashing the real differences. There are REAL differences and the proper rebuttal the randman's taking those differences to the extreme is to stick to what those differences actually are not by making the religions the same.Randman believes Islam is something that it is most specifically not. He is going in the opposite direction of making it so different that it is unreasonable. I don't know why he does this, presumably to validate his own religion?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Actually what CS believes is that there are two interpretations and that the peaceful interpretation is incorrect and based on a non-literal interpretation of the Koran. You in the past have agreed with this. I personally think that such a position is utterly wrong but as long as we are spelling out positions here I think that is the more accurate one. Yea and we have hashed through this a million times. I know you are wrong as a matter of fact. If you want to continue to beat your head against a wall thought then be my guest. I won't join you. Wahabbism is generally based on more than just the Koran. What I am talking about are the majority of the followers of Islam who are not Wahabbi, who follow the Koran and treat the Hadith like they should, as commentary. "Most" of Islam does not include Sharia so you are most plain and simply wrong. I also doubt that Sharia prescribes the rape and torture of children. So even if they are claiming Sharia they most certainly are not following it. Unless you can provide a quote from Sharia law that makes it okay to rape 9 year olds and cut out unborn fetuses from pregnant mothers.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Nor did the vast majority of Christians rise up to stop the Inquisition.Nor do Christians currently stand up against what they believe are charlatans of the faith.Most people are just trying to get by and live their lives. That you would default a lack of action to mean tacit approval just shows where you bias rests. You believe that Islam is a barbaric religiously imperialistic machine and to PREFER to believe that over the much simpler explanations available.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I do denounce terrorism. The Moslems in my family do so also. My father was interviewed on the local news condemning the riots over the cartoon fiasco. Local Mosques and other individuals like my father constantly speak out against the violence of terrorists.I am the one rising up to denounce it. What sort of position do you hold that you would defaultly assume that I just sit back and accept it? What I said was that most people in Islam, especially those in impoverished conditions compared to ours, are spending their energies just trying to get by with the basic necessities of life. People such as the rest of my family that is in the West Bank are in no position to rage against some fundamentalist backwards version of Islam over in Sudan. The Islamic world is huge just like the Christian world. To try to get the Christian world to unite to condemn anything is nearly impossible. Why would you expect Islam to be any different?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Why would they do such a thing when there is no source of terrorism in Islam? That Islam breeds violence is the message of the fundamentalist and the ignorant.It is very simple to say why they wont "denounce the source of terrorism in Islam itself." They don't believe that!

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Please show where in the structure of Islam or even Sharia it is permissible to rape a 9 year old or cut out an unborn fetus from its mother.How are those acts anything other than radacalism?I am focusing the discussion to Sudan and the silly allegation that it is Islam's fault that the attrocities are occuring. Isn't that what is on topic? What about my other points?Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Well, there were plenty of other Christians around the world who were not in Spain. Where was the massive united backlash that apparantly is required if a religion is supposed to renouce a part of it that goes crazy?That is the point.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

There is a problem here. I never said there is not. I think what is going on in Sudan is terrible and the world should get together to do something about it including other Moslem nations.I just know that your Islam = rape/murder/mutilation/imperialism association that you are trying to build in this thread is bullshit just like it was last time. And the last time CS tried to do it. And the last time buzzsaw tried to do it. Etc. Etc.It really is sad how you all harp on this issue to no avail. Evertime radical Islam makes the news it is just one more way for you to differentiate your particular version of an Abrahamic faith from theirs and continue to villify the Moslem.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

They don't prefer to read them spiritually. They prefer to read them correctly and in context, something that you and others of your pursuasion on this issue continually fail to do. This is false and has been demonstrated many times to be false. Just because the handful of you all never change your tune on anything does not make it any less false then the last time we hashed out the context of the war verses. I am not the one being decieved here and my family represents the majority of Moslems around the world who aren't the radical headline makers. Your enemy is some specter of Islam created by appeals to radicalism and irrationalism. Have you every actually read the Koran? Not just the pieces of it that you want to but that actualy Koran in large bits?I notice that no one has yet taken up my challange to justify all the things in the OP in terms of the Koran or even Sharia the so called all encompassing cause of all the craziness in Sudan. Where in either the Koran or Sharia does it permit raping children, cutting out fetuses from pregnant mothers, etc? I mean common! If Islam is the cause then there should be a direct link something in Islam and molesting children in the text or in the doctrine derived from the text. Just saying that in Islam they kill people is not really doing your position much service at all. How are those people anything other than extremist murderers?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

YOU brought that up and now you try to dodge it by calling me "decieved"! You took the position that if there is no uprising of the masses against something that it is tacit approval. You didn't even bother to answer the real point in that post which is the compaison of rallying the Christian world. It is near impossible to get all of Christianity to condem some world event yet you expect that if Islam does not that means they are all in agreement in support of it. It is ludicrous to expect what you do in order to eliminate your silly and unreasonable conclusion that Islam supports what is going on in Sudan. I never said it is "merely a few crazies" but is a minority. Terrorism and extremism is a real threat that we need to deal with. I NEVER said any different and your presumption that I had is only indicative of the fragility of your position that you would need to invent a characture of my position in order to attack it. Which again is entirely false and has been demonstrated to be so many times. Repeating yourself does not make you more right. You can return to resume those discussion about the war verses any time you want. The issue was FAR from settled in your favor in any of the situations where it was brought up. All you have in support now is the tentativity of your minority position. Not very convincing at all sorry.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This is for both Rick and Faith.Faith is 100% correct Rick in saying that the Bible does not endorse continued violence while the Koran does. As I said in the beginning of this thread I feel trying to draw comparisons between Christianity and Islam with this regard is the most futile form of argument because they are very different. Christiantly also CHANGED with the new testament. It is part of the doctrine even though some Christians choose to cherry pick parts of the old testament to justify radical behavior.Where faith is totally wrong though is in her calim that the Koran's justification for continued violence is anything other than a mandate allowing you to protect youself from attack. In context the war verses can only be interpreted by a reasonable person as being defensive. It gets subjective when certain sects of Islam change the meaning of "defensive" to basically mean they can war against anything, like what is going on in Sudan, but the verses themselves do not change.Faith and others on her side of the fence feel that they have demonstrated that the war verses are a call to religious imperialism. In fact the issue has never been settled and like many issues we talk about on this board will probably never be settled. But they feel that they can continue to use it as a talking point as if the issue HAD been settled. If you bring this up then you are "..decieved even though we continually showed you the truth...". Pure rhetoric.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I agree with Jar. I don't remember reading that in my version of the Koran.Perhaps you could give the preceeding and subsequent 3-4 verses with that also.Thanks for backing up your claims in advance.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Quote mining the Bible may not help show how Faith and others are quote mining the Koran. It does to me but it seems to only have the effect of infuriating them in their case. There are other means to destroy their obviously weak position then simply turning around and using the same fallacy against them.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)