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Author Topic:   Islamic jihad: the genocide in the Sudan
Tusko
Member (Idle past 131 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 2 of 203 (318200)
06-06-2006 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
06-06-2006 2:47 AM


Absolutely atrocious. I thank my stars that I don't live in a country where force or any kind of coercion is used to impose religious beliefs.
I guess the implication is that Islam is a doctrine that encourages such brutality and forced conversion more than others.
I don't want Islam being singled out as a particularly evil religion because I genuinely don't see it as being much different as the other Abramic faiths. People have killed in the name of many gods, just as they have killed for godless principles. Its the nature of the beast, isn't it?
I'd imagine the native peoples of South America were subjected to similar atrocities, as were the Cathars. You might argue that these things happened a long time ago, and you'd be right, but the sacred texts have remained relatively unchanged during this time, I'd imagine.
Am I being glib? I hope not. Unacceptable oppression can take many forms, and not just horrific violence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 06-06-2006 2:47 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by randman, posted 06-06-2006 11:55 AM Tusko has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 131 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 5 of 203 (318324)
06-06-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by randman
06-06-2006 11:55 AM


Re: the sacred texts
The Koran says...
"And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers" - ( 2.191).
but it also says...
"You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion" - (109.6).
So what do we make of that? I'm not convinced that the Koran is an uncomplicated manifesto for bloody religious uprising. I suspect its as contradictory as many other holy books can appear to those who don't believe in them.
Books that are contradictory but inspire religious devotion can be picked and chosen from - interpreted - and I think that goes some way to explaining the radically different behaviours of the Janjaweed and some of the Muslims I know.
I guess this won't satisfy you - and a mention of the old testament verses that sound a bit queazy - like say Numbers 31:1-54, which seem to indorse massacre and rape on ethnic or religious grounds, won't seem relevant.
The fact of the matter is that I have difficulty trying to differenciate between Christian and Islamic calls to arms like this and would be very interested if you could explain how they differ.

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 Message 4 by randman, posted 06-06-2006 11:55 AM randman has not replied

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 Message 6 by Jazzns, posted 06-06-2006 1:00 PM Tusko has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 131 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 7 of 203 (318346)
06-06-2006 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jazzns
06-06-2006 1:00 PM


Re: the sacred texts
I don't dispute that many Christians chose to distance themselves as best as they possibly can from the more colourful aspects of the Old Testament (although if you are going to make any argument about Jesus fulfilling prophesy from the Old Testament then I'm going to be checking your clothing labels to see that you don't mix your fibres too).
I don't dispute that Islam and Christianity are rather different propositions from each other - and that the grounds on which violence might be justified are probably different.
Am I right in thinking you are concerned that I have conceded that Islam justifies violence on some other ground than self-defence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Jazzns, posted 06-06-2006 1:00 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jazzns, posted 06-06-2006 1:30 PM Tusko has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 131 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 9 of 203 (318356)
06-06-2006 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jazzns
06-06-2006 1:30 PM


Re: the sacred texts
Fair enough. Seeing as I don't have a working knowledge of Islam, I just want to hear what he has to say, really.
I don't want to be seen to be clumping the Abramic religions together too unthinkingly, but I believe that considering their similarities as well as the differences between them can be helpful. That said, I don't want to develop an inaccurate understanding of Islam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jazzns, posted 06-06-2006 1:30 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
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