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Author Topic:   What Is The Positive Evidence For Atheism?
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 259 of 301 (437255)
11-29-2007 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Cold Foreign Object
11-28-2007 11:30 PM


Wrong! Perhaps we need to revisit 101...
CFO writes:
Evolution is based on materialism, which in essence says causation is perpetually material and never Divine. This is 101 stuff.
In week one of my Philosophy of Science course I do an entire lecture on the difference between methodological materialism and philosophical materialism and how they are, often deliberately, confused by creationists. So here is a review of '101':
Methodological materialism is one of the most critical aspects of the scientific method. It is, simplistically, that when investigating a process or causation you begin with the assumption that those causes can be understood via natural laws or processes.
Philosophical materialism is a belief that only the natural exists, there can not be a supernatural.
These two are easily confused but are very, very different. The first is a method and can say absolutely nothing about the existence or nonexistence of the supernatural, only that it cannot be used as a causal explanation. The latter is a belief, based on faith alone. All scientists use methodological materialism when conducting science, some scientists are ALSO philosophical materialists just as some are strongly religious.
An example I like to use is to have students imagine a police detective who is a fundamentalist Christian. He is investigating a murder scene. His investigation NEEDS to begin with the assumption that the murder occurred, that the murder was conducted by another human being, and that the murderer left some physical clues. He CANNOT investigate the murder assuming a supernatural agent was responsible, an evil spirit, demon, or even Old Scratch himself was responsible. His methodological materialist approach in no way speaks of his belief in the existence of the supernatural. He still believes in God, he still believes in Satan. He may even believe (and probably does) that ultimately the murder was caused by supernatural influences. But his investigation is entirely physical.
This is the world of all real scientists, whether atheist, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. A Christian who is also an evolutionary biologist will look at a phenomena, examine evidence, and search for naturalistic explanations. Even if they believe that ultimately the phenomena is the result of supernatural agencies.
One point that needs to be stressed is that with methodological materialism supernatural agencies cannot be considered as science. But this is a two-way street. The statement "There is a god" and "There is no god" are equally unscientific although legitimate scientists may hold either belief.
The method employed by creationists is to show that evolutionary science is based on materialism (methodological) then show that materialism (philosophical) is faith, then use this chimaera definition to imply evolution is merely faith. It is misleading at best. I taught my students that if they here the term 'materialism' to engage their spidey sense and try to find out which disparate concept is being used.

"I have seen so far because I have stood on the bloated corpses of my competitors" - Dr Burgess Bowder

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-28-2007 11:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-29-2007 5:09 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied
 Message 262 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-29-2007 5:14 PM Lithodid-Man has replied
 Message 281 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-30-2007 1:46 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 266 of 301 (437354)
11-29-2007 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Cold Foreign Object
11-29-2007 5:14 PM


Re: Wrong! Perhaps we need to revisit 101...
Ray,
First of all my post was on topic, your OP is asking whether or not atheism has evidence or is based on faith. I stated that atheism is, like religion, a philosophical position and rooted in faith. However, what I object to is this:
Evolution = Materialism = Atheism
This statement is flawed because the middle assumes the following:
methodological materialism = philosophical materialism
When broken apart the statements are more or less true:
Evolution = (methodological) Materialism (would replace '=' with 'based on' or 'rooted in')
(philosophical) Materialism = Atheism (would replace '=' with 'includes')
I am not sure how or where this warrants being called 'an illogical assertion', it is pretty basic philosophy of science and really isn't argued by anyone. I spent some time trying to figure out where you would get that, and the only thing I can see is that I am using the term 'materialism' as a synonym of 'naturalism'. From what I can find the latter term is more often used but is interchangeable.

"I have seen so far because I have stood on the bloated corpses of my competitors" - Dr Burgess Bowder

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-29-2007 5:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by bluegenes, posted 11-29-2007 7:50 PM Lithodid-Man has replied

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2959 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 270 of 301 (437372)
11-29-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by bluegenes
11-29-2007 7:50 PM


Re: Wrong! Perhaps we need to revisit 101...
You are right. What I did was attempt to oversimplify. I know that all atheists are not philosophical materialists, I should have been more precise in wording the reverse. Thanks for the catch!

"I have seen so far because I have stood on the bloated corpses of my competitors" - Dr Burgess Bowder

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by bluegenes, posted 11-29-2007 7:50 PM bluegenes has not replied

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