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Author
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Topic: What Is The Positive Evidence For Atheism?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 58 of 301 (435790)
11-22-2007 10:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by GDR
11-22-2007 9:15 PM
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Re: Two different universes
GDR writes: If there is a god then all natural phenomenon and mathematical equations required the miracle of creation. I don't see any particular reason to conflate gods with creation. Why can't we have gods poking their noses into a universe they didn't create?
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by GDR, posted 11-22-2007 9:15 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by GDR, posted 11-22-2007 11:23 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 61 of 301 (435798)
11-23-2007 12:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 60 by GDR
11-22-2007 11:23 PM
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Re: Two different universes
GDR writes: Whether there are other gods or not isn't really germane. I didn't say anything about "other" gods. I'm questioning whether any gods need to have been responsible for creation. In Greek and Norse mythology, for example, the gods seem to be a product of the creation rather than the source of it.
All we are talking about is basic Theism which, as I see it implies an intelligence that is responsible for all that there is. Some forms of theism do posit their gods as the creators of everything, but it's hardly a prerequisite.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 60 by GDR, posted 11-22-2007 11:23 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 63 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 1:44 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 64 of 301 (435804)
11-23-2007 2:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
11-23-2007 1:44 AM
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Re: Two different universes
GDR writes: I have never denied the people have and do believe in gods that aren't a source of creation. Well, you did say in Message 56:
quote:
If there is a god then all natural phenomenon and mathematical equations required the miracle of creation.
If you're agreeing that that "requirement" is only in your head, we're fine. 
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 1:44 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 66 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 2:29 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 74 of 301 (435870)
11-23-2007 1:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 66 by GDR
11-23-2007 2:29 AM
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Re: Two different universes
GDR writes: If you note, I did say IF there is a god.... And that's what I've been addressing: IF there is a god or gods, there is no "requirement" that he/she/it/they had anything whatsoever to do with creating the universe. The universe and every flock of gods might have always existed in one form or another ("always" being a bit tenuous in the "time" before time. ) Or some gods might have been around for a long while and some might have popped up out of nowhere last Friday, when the universe was already a day old. There simply is no "required" relationship between gods and creation.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 2:29 AM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 79 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 2:57 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 82 of 301 (435881)
11-23-2007 3:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 79 by GDR
11-23-2007 2:57 PM
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GDR writes: quote:
There simply is no "required" relationship between gods and creation.
We have no way of absolutely knowing if that is the case or not. What I'm saying is that SINCE we have no way of knowing for sure, any conclusion about such a "requirement" is just made up in our heads. Similarly, if somebody decided that God must wear size 11 shoes, that would be just made up in their head.
As I have said we can look at the world and come to our own conclusions. And, as I have said, some of those conclusions are based on reality and some are just made-up fantasies. The idea that existence requires a creator is made-up fantasy.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 79 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 2:57 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 88 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 6:09 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 93 of 301 (435907)
11-23-2007 6:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 88 by GDR
11-23-2007 6:09 PM
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GDR writes: You completely discount the possibility of divine revelation. Not at all. I have examined reports of "divine revelation" and found them all to be unreliable. I welcome any reports of true divine revelation. Just don't expect me to swallow them indiscriminately.
I do believe it exists and on a very small level I believe I have experienced it. Can I prove it? No. That's just it. I can prove to you that the Eiffel Tower exists or that YouTube exists or even that love and hate exist. If you can't prove something exists and you know you can't prove it exists, why would you still believe it exists? How can something so fundamentally uncommunicable be so "real" to you? It may not be "positive evidence" but the abject inability of believers to communicate their "revelations" to unbelievers seems like a pretty good reason for atheism.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 6:09 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 94 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 6:57 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 95 of 301 (435913)
11-23-2007 7:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 94 by GDR
11-23-2007 6:57 PM
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GDR writes: What would it take to convince you that an example of "divine revelation" was reliable? It isn't something that can be tested empirically. That's just the point. Why can't it be tested empirically? How do you tell the difference between something that "can't be tested" and something that failed every test?
If it happened the way he said it did then it was a revelation from God. You presumably either believe he is lying or mistaken. Why couldn't he be mistaken?
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 6:57 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 96 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 7:26 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 98 of 301 (435925)
11-23-2007 7:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 96 by GDR
11-23-2007 7:26 PM
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GDR writes: The evidence that it is true is that he completely devoted his life to Christian service and that as a result of what was largely his work the Christian church became established amongst the gentiles. That doesn't answer the question. Why couldn't Paul have been mistaken? People devote their lives to lost causes all the time - treasure hunters, UFO chasers, cryptozoologists.... How does devotion to an unsupported premise improve it?
That however is not enough for you to be convinced that it was divine revelation. Of course not - no more than the story of Alladin convinces me of magic lamps. Why should it?
Empirical evidence? There never will be any. We have a choice to make. Do we beleive it or not? That's a pretty poor basis for any belief.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 7:26 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 99 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 7:49 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 100 of 301 (435929)
11-23-2007 7:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 99 by GDR
11-23-2007 7:49 PM
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GDR writes: What results do we see from anything Alladin did? The same results we see from anything Paul did. In both cases, we have an unverified story. If some people attribute results to "what Paul did", that doesn't make it true.
The fact that you discount divine revelation is a pretty poor basis for disbelief. You're not paying attention. I don't discount divine revelation. I just don't swallow hook-line-and-sinker every unsupported account of divine revelation. Complete lack of any evidence is an excellent basis for disbelief.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 7:49 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 101 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:00 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 106 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 9:01 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 102 of 301 (435933)
11-23-2007 8:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 101 by jar
11-23-2007 8:00 PM
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Re: Topic?
Is it even a reasonable question? I don't think so. "A"theism is inherently negative.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by jar, posted 11-23-2007 8:00 PM | | jar has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 108 of 301 (435976)
11-23-2007 11:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 106 by GDR
11-23-2007 9:01 PM
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GDR writes: Not proof in the empirical sense... There's no such thing as "proof in the empirical sense". You should know that by now.
... but evidence which should be taken into account as to his credibility. Why should non-empirical "evidence" be taken into account?
You say you don't discount it but you haven't given me any criteria for a divine revelation that you would accept. If somebody rang your doorbell and claimed to be Napoleon, what crieria would you need to accept his word? Since he's standing right in front of you, he's already one up on God, isn't he?
But I don't believe that there is complete lack of evidence. I've indicated sevreral things that I consider non-empirical evidence. If you believe axle grease is ice cream, that doesn't make it so. Hint: evidence has to be evident.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by GDR, posted 11-23-2007 9:01 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 110 by GDR, posted 11-24-2007 11:16 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 117 of 301 (436133)
11-24-2007 2:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 110 by GDR
11-24-2007 11:16 AM
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GDR writes: quote:
Why should non-empirical "evidence" be taken into account?
Why not? We have consciousness. That is a fact. Why? What's non-empirical about consciousness?
Just because the conclusion can't be tested empirically doesn't mean that you can't form opinions about it. Just because you can form an opinion doesn't mean it has any value. What other way do we have to test the value of opinions besides empirically?
So when you say that you believe divine revelation is possible you limit it to revelation that is physical. What other kind of revelation is there? Is every unsupported opinion a "divine revelation"?
Do you believe that if God exists that He could plant thoughts into people's heads. He might or might not be able to. The question is: How do we know that a thought in our head came from God?
The fact that the universe exists is pretty evident but we interpret that evudence differently. You're making the same argument as Baretta: that anything you pull out of your ass is an equivalent "interpretation". I tried to explain to him/her that some interpretations are right and some are wrong. The right ones are - guess what - the ones that can be supported empirically.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 110 by GDR, posted 11-24-2007 11:16 AM | | GDR has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 209 of 301 (436815)
11-27-2007 5:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 208 by GDR
11-27-2007 4:29 PM
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Re: Who is misreading?
GDR writes: I think most people just see ID as saying that there is an intelligent designer. But nobody cares about those people. EvC is only about the ones who want to pollute our children's education with "scientific creation" and/or "scientific design".
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 208 by GDR, posted 11-27-2007 4:29 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 210 by GDR, posted 11-27-2007 6:20 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 211 of 301 (436828)
11-27-2007 6:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 210 by GDR
11-27-2007 6:20 PM
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GDR writes: So I go back to my original statement. I think that most people, (this forum not being representative of most people), would say that they agree with ID in the pure sense of the term and not understand that there was an underlying agenda. And I'll go back to my original dtatement: It doesn't matter what you think. When you're on this forum, you should use terminology as it's used on this forum. If you use the "pure sense of the term" instead of the accepted sense, you're just contributing to the confusion. We have enough problems with (young-earth) creationists and "cdesign proponentists" making up their own terminology and using the forty-seventh definition from the dictionary to back up their "pure sense of the term". If you want to communicate, you have to use terminology the way your audience understands it.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 210 by GDR, posted 11-27-2007 6:20 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 213 by GDR, posted 11-27-2007 7:21 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 215 of 301 (436852)
11-27-2007 7:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 213 by GDR
11-27-2007 7:21 PM
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GDR writes: ... my point is when we talk about the general population.... We're not talking about the general population.
“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 213 by GDR, posted 11-27-2007 7:21 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 217 by GDR, posted 11-27-2007 9:19 PM | | ringo has replied |
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