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Author Topic:   Focus on the Family Will Keep your Kid from Being Gay
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 91 of 317 (234850)
08-19-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Rahvin
08-19-2005 1:26 PM


Re: Tal is right
It's not "tough to swallow" that the average American is a bigot and an idiot. I see evidence of that every day at work. Well, the idiot part anyway. It's just unfortunate.
So when you disagree with the majority, you are not an extremist, but they are idiots, but when Dobson disagrees with the majority he is an extremist, even a "radical cleric"?
LOL
And you see no contradiction here in your principles or the way you describe people?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Rahvin, posted 08-19-2005 1:26 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Rahvin, posted 08-19-2005 2:20 PM randman has not replied

Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 92 of 317 (234852)
08-19-2005 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Rahvin
08-19-2005 1:31 PM


Re: Tal is right
Yep. Your view is not held by the majority, and is extremist.
Prove it. You can't. I've already shown you the numbers that prove otherwise.
If you believed being black was "just one sin" you would also be an extremist radical. "Just one sin" does not make you any less radical.
Incorrect. Homosexual sex is a choice.
Your (or Jesus) "forgiveness" of them is irrelevant. They don't need forgiving because it's not evil. Only a biblical inerrantist would believe that passage to be the Word of God. I certainly don't, and I'm not alone.
Ahhh so you selectively read scripture! Let's see what scriptures you have to ignore to believe that.
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you."Leviticus 18:22-24
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."Leviticus 20:13
"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."Romans 1:26-27
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."1 Corinthians 6:9
You can use the same "forgiveness" to excuse murder and rape. They are "just two sins," after all. The fact that you put homosexuality on the same level as crimes like these (sins) makes you radical.
Interesting, but incorrect logic.
Let's see what God has to say about it.
"Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching."1 Timothy 1:9-10
Wow, look at that, homosexuality is thrown in there with murderers and kidnappers! Guess that makes God radical.
Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
GASP! What a politically incorrect statement!
I'm not putting homosexuality on the level of "crime" as murder. It is all sin. The bible says that sin is sin. There are different consequences for different sins.
This message has been edited by Tal, 08-19-2005 02:07 PM

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Rahvin, posted 08-19-2005 1:31 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 08-19-2005 2:20 PM Tal has replied
 Message 101 by Rahvin, posted 08-19-2005 2:52 PM Tal has replied
 Message 122 by Trump won, posted 08-20-2005 12:50 AM Tal has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 93 of 317 (234854)
08-19-2005 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by crashfrog
08-19-2005 7:53 AM


Re: hypocrites and prudes on the left and right
Your post, again, seems to consistently ignore the fact that we're not just talking about bathing, we're talking about the display of genitals to a child.
This is a strawman.
First of all Dobson specifically mentions sharing a shower with one's own son. So it is about bathing and not just whipping one's penis out at some unusual time. Second, I do not ignore that his suggestion involves displaying genitals to a child. Indeed you are somewhat less than honest for making such a claim.
My position has been repeatedly to acknowledge the display of genitals, but then show it is context and not act itself which determines propriety or even potentiality for abuse. Dobson's suggestion was not for arousal and merely for instructive purposes... familiarity with male genitalia.
Washing children involves much more than this, it involves direct contact of an adult with a child's genitals. According to your logic, it appears someone can damn that practice by stating that its not about hygiene, if it involves touching a child's genitals.
According to your logic, apparently, the guy in the park in the trenchcoat isn't a flasher; he's an educational resource for children.
I don't know how you can feel comfortable with this answer. This defies the very points and distinctions I brought up.
A flasher is someone exposing their genitals to strangers for the purpose of their own sexual gratification. Dobson's suggestion doesn't even come close to that, and neither did my discussion which was strictly related to family care and cases not involving sexual gratification.
Two major strawmen. Shame.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2005 7:53 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Tal, posted 08-19-2005 2:09 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 118 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2005 5:30 PM Silent H has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 94 of 317 (234855)
08-19-2005 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by nator
08-19-2005 8:12 AM


Well, I really get the feeling much of the time that you believe that your opinions and tastes are superior to everyone else's.
Opinions yes, tastes no. And everyone else can rightly feel their opinions are superior to mine. That's what makes the world go around, as well as gets things done that I would hate to do myself.
Facts, however, are not opinions. And I thoroughly dislike inconsistency and hypocrisy, especially by those arguing for freedom and tolerance for those they like, while willingly crushing those they don't like (ignoring the same pleas they wish fulfilled).

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by nator, posted 08-19-2005 8:12 AM nator has not replied

Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 95 of 317 (234856)
08-19-2005 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Silent H
08-19-2005 2:03 PM


Re: hypocrites and prudes on the left and right
Wow, I agree with Holmes on something.
I was just going to say I'm gonna get put in jail for changing my daughter's diaper.

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Silent H, posted 08-19-2005 2:03 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Silent H, posted 08-19-2005 2:20 PM Tal has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 317 (234857)
08-19-2005 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tal
08-19-2005 2:00 PM


Well, lets look at what Timothy (Paul) says.
Timothy 1:9-10 in the King James Version
9: Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10: For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Looking closely, I can't find homosexuality mentioned.
Let's look at the other characteristics. If you look at murders, adulters, kidnappers etc, they all have something in common. They are acts against the society. But homosexuality is different. It involves those commiting the act only, no one else in the community is even involved, much less affected.
Again, if you read all of Timothy it's talking about social order and the law.
There is justification for social sanctions against murders, kidnappers, liars, theives. But there can be no justification for social sanctions against homosexuals.
If homosexuality is a sin, and many Christians don't think it is, then it is something GOD will judge. That does not give anyone the right or mandate to insert social sanctions against homosexuals.
In addition, the very basic commandments of Christianity, "Love others as you love yourself" require that Christians should be opposing discriminatory practices such as the Defense of Marriage Act.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tal, posted 08-19-2005 2:00 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Tal, posted 08-19-2005 2:44 PM jar has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 97 of 317 (234858)
08-19-2005 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tal
08-19-2005 2:09 PM


Re: hypocrites and prudes on the left and right
Wow, I agree with Holmes on something.
It appeared to me crash had to be talking from an overt lack of experience in family life and child rearing.
In any case, let me ask you what you think of Dobson's suggestion from a fundie view. And I don't mean whether it would work. Aren't there pretty clear scriptural admonitions against fathers being naked in front of their sons?
I realize that if read figuratively it could mean something else, but I thought fundamentalism requires literal treatement and literally children should not uncover their father's nakedness. That would seem to cut both ways.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tal, posted 08-19-2005 2:09 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Tal, posted 08-19-2005 2:59 PM Silent H has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 98 of 317 (234859)
08-19-2005 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by randman
08-19-2005 1:52 PM


Re: Tal is right
So when you disagree with the majority, you are not an extremist, but they are idiots
I apologize if I was unclear. I consider the average American to be a total fool - the vast majority don't know the sort of things we teach to elementary students. They are not idiots becuase they disagree with me, they are idiots because they can't turn a computer on without help. They are idiots because they always want to blame someone else instead of taking any responsibility. They are idiots becasue they don't even remember the very basics of their education.
As such, it doesn't surprise me if the majority makes a decision I consider foolish or not fully thought through.
but when Dobson disagrees with the majority he is an extremist, even a "radical cleric"?
LOL
Did I ever say that I'm totally mainstream in my views? I fully acknowledge that the majority does not agree with me on every single topic. SOme of my views could be considered outside the mainstream, even radical depending on who's judging. But I at least don't try to force my opinion on others.
And you see no contradiction here in your principles or the way you describe people?
Nope. I'm entitled to my views just aas they are entitled to theirs. I think they're bigots...but they probably think I'm going to Hell. We're even, as far as I'm concerned, so long as they don't go Phelps' route.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by randman, posted 08-19-2005 1:52 PM randman has not replied

Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 99 of 317 (234867)
08-19-2005 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
08-19-2005 2:20 PM


Re: Well, lets look at what Timothy (Paul) says.
Looking closely, I can't find homosexuality mentioned.
And? Do you ignore the other scriptures too?
There is justification for social sanctions against murders, kidnappers, liars, theives. But there can be no justification for social sanctions against homosexuals.
Uhhuh, except all the other scriptures you are ignoring.
If homosexuality is a sin, and many Christians don't think it is, then it is something GOD will judge. That does not give anyone the right or mandate to insert social sanctions against homosexuals.
That's not what is happening. Homosexuals don't have the right or mandate to insert their social agenda against the rest of society.
In addition, the very basic commandments of Christianity, "Love others as you love yourself" require that Christians should be opposing discriminatory practices such as the Defense of Marriage Act.
No it doesn't. It says we should love them, not bend over and accept their political ideas for changing the fabric of society.

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 08-19-2005 2:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 08-19-2005 3:01 PM Tal has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 317 (234869)
08-19-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
08-17-2005 6:03 PM


Uh-oh
If I had a very young daughter, I would take her into the shower with me to bathe her. Would that be bad?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 08-17-2005 6:03 PM crashfrog has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 101 of 317 (234870)
08-19-2005 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tal
08-19-2005 2:00 PM


Re: Tal is right
Prove it. You can't. I've already shown you the numbers that prove otherwise.
You showed numbers regarding gay marriage, which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The majority of people do not consider homosexuality to be "an abomination."
Incorrect. Homosexual sex is a choice.
You didn't read my previous posts. Experimentation with flies has shown that certain gene will turn otherwise normal flies into homosexuals. Switch the gene, and bam! they act like they are the opposite gender, and attempt to mate with other flies of their own sex.
Homosexuality is at least partially genetic.
Ahhh so you selectively read scripture! Let's see what scriptures you have to ignore to believe that.
Ahhh, so you slectively read these forums, and didn't realize that not all Christians are literalists! I believe that Paul was a sexually repressive bigot and was more concerned with starting the Christian religion than keeping its message (love thy neighbor, and forgiveness). The authors of the Bible attached their own perspectives to what they wrote, and not everything in the Bible is God's Direct Word. Or do you think we should start killing witches again?
Let's see what God has to say about it.
God didn't write the Bible.
I'm not putting homosexuality on the level of "crime" as murder. It is all sin. The bible says that sin is sin. There are different consequences for different sins.
Yes, certain authors of the Bible called homosexuality a sin. Whether GOD considers it a sin is an entirely different matter, and is a matter of personal belief.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tal, posted 08-19-2005 2:00 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Tal, posted 08-19-2005 3:04 PM Rahvin has replied

Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 102 of 317 (234872)
08-19-2005 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Silent H
08-19-2005 2:20 PM


Re: hypocrites and prudes on the left and right
I'm guessing Gensis 9 is what you are referring to when Noah's son saw his nakedness. I've heard some go deep into the hebrew language to try to define that the word "saw" implied someting more. I don't know about that, but here's what verse 24 says:
Gensis 9:24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
Interesting way to put it. It doesn't say "and found out that his son had seen him naked,"
Other than this entry, I don't find anything else in the bible that says "thou shalt not be naked before thy son."
By todays standards, I don't think seeing your parents nakedness is a sin, although most of us agree it would be pretty gross. I take baths with my daughter quite a bit, so I guess I'm guilty. :/
I also take showers with other men on a regular basis, but that is the public shower room in barracks and camps.

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Silent H, posted 08-19-2005 2:20 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Silent H, posted 08-19-2005 3:33 PM Tal has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 103 of 317 (234873)
08-19-2005 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Tal
08-19-2005 2:44 PM


Re: Well, lets look at what Timothy (Paul) says.
Uhhuh, except all the other scriptures you are ignoring.
I'm not ignoring them. I'm saying Paul was often a hypocrite when it served his purpose and that many of his writings are also being misunderstood. You quoted a copy of Timothy that included the word homosexual. I provided another copy of the same verses that does not contain the word or even concept homosexual.
That's not what is happening. Homosexuals don't have the right or mandate to insert their social agenda against the rest of society.
Let's see if there is ANY merit to that assertion.
If homosexuals are granted the rights and resposibilities of marriage, how does that modify a heterosexual marriage?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Tal, posted 08-19-2005 2:44 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Tal, posted 08-19-2005 3:12 PM jar has replied

Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 104 of 317 (234874)
08-19-2005 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Rahvin
08-19-2005 2:52 PM


Re: Tal is right
You showed numbers regarding gay marriage, which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The majority of people do not consider homosexuality to be "an abomination."
Once again, provide a link to some proof.
Everyone at my church thinks it is. Everyone in my family but 2 people thinks it is. All my neighbors think it is. Everyone in my work building thinks it is.
Cough up some proof.
You didn't read my previous posts. Experimentation with flies has shown that certain gene will turn otherwise normal flies into homosexuals. Switch the gene, and bam! they act like they are the opposite gender, and attempt to mate with other flies of their own sex.
Homosexuality is at least partially genetic.
Uhhuh....so do I just walk around with a "gay gene" cattle prod and just pop straight people to make them gay? Or can I use it to make gay people straight?
Maybe people that get hit by lightning have their gay gene turned on?
Stupidest thing I've ever heard.
As to the rest of your post, you are getting into the theology. If you don't believe the bible is written by God, how can you use it to attempt to defend your position???

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Rahvin, posted 08-19-2005 2:52 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Parasomnium, posted 08-19-2005 3:50 PM Tal has replied
 Message 112 by Rahvin, posted 08-19-2005 4:13 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 131 by nator, posted 08-20-2005 6:19 PM Tal has not replied

Tal
Member (Idle past 5707 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 105 of 317 (234876)
08-19-2005 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
08-19-2005 3:01 PM


Re: Well, lets look at what Timothy (Paul) says.
. I'm saying Paul was often a hypocrite when it served his purpose and that many of his writings are also being misunderstood.
Oh, then same thing with you. How can ya'll use the bible to argue your case when you don't believe it?
If homosexuals are granted the rights and resposibilities of marriage, how does that modify a heterosexual marriage?
Our preacher summed it up
Making it legally possible for same-sex couples to get "married" in America will forever alter the meaning of marriage for everybody. It is a much more profound change than modifying the wording in a few laws. Marriage is more fundamental to the human experience than the laws regulating it because it was around long before there were laws; marriage statutes merely recognize and regulate an institution that has always existed.
Redesigning those laws to reinvent that institution - the foundational unit of society - is a genuinely groundbreaking concept. No civilization in the history of mankind has ever done it. Never in human history has there been a society, advanced or primitive, in which same-sex marriage was embraced as an ordinary family form and a normal part of everyday life. Certainly, a few societies have experimented with such unions, but they were anomalies even at the time.
Every major world religion - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism - have for millennia defined marriage as the union of man and woman. Why is it reasonable to believe that a small, vocal minority pushing a totally self-serving agenda, have suddenly discovered some profound truth that the greatest thinkers in the history of mankind somehow missed?
There is one plain truth that has gotten mangled almost beyond recognition in the cat fight over same-sex marriage. It is simple and clear. Man cannot redefine marriage because he didn't define it in the first place; man can't change the nature of the marriage unit because he didn't invent it. God did.

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 08-19-2005 3:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 08-19-2005 3:26 PM Tal has replied
 Message 113 by Rahvin, posted 08-19-2005 4:22 PM Tal has not replied

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