|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,889 Year: 4,146/9,624 Month: 1,017/974 Week: 344/286 Day: 65/40 Hour: 1/5 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Abortion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It is more likely that I will have a greater respect and regard for a person whom I have developed some kind of personal relationship with, and will see and interact with on a regular basis, compared to a nameless person that I have no emotional relationship with and will never see again. I have nothing invested in a stranger.
quote: Deep emotional intimacy adds meaning to sex for most people. Casual sex lacks this.
quote: Yes, this can and does happen, of course. It is interesting that you refer to emotional connection and commitment in such a negative way by using the word "entanglement".
quote: But it is clear that sexual acts actively promote emotional bonding (like in the Bonobos) between people and they do have a great impact on people's lives. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-30-2005 09:23 AM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Nuggin Member (Idle past 2521 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
I wonder what Jesus WOULD think? Is this the same Jesus who hung out with all the prostitutes?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Ben! Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 1161 From: Hayward, CA Joined: |
It's a free country, people are going to make their own decisions... Do we want them to be informed? or not? There are two ways for people to make informed decisions. One is for each person to be educated, to develop decision-making skills, and to apply them in all circumstances. Seems ... so unlikely to me. The other is to convince them that others have made the decision for you, and that they know what they're doing, and that you really need to follow. Als seems... so unlikely to me. Some people need the first type of solution. Some the second. I haven't found a way to provide both solutions at the same time. So... I don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be. It's not just about making information available or not. I mean... read the board man. The information is there. It makes a difference to some. Some.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Silent H Member (Idle past 5847 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
It is more likely that I will have a greater respect and regard for a person whom I have developed some kind of personal relationship with, and will see and interact with on a regular basis, compared to a nameless person that I have no emotional relationship with and will never see again. That still doesn't answer the question. How come a person who has casual sex with someone mean that they lack respect and responsibility toward that other person. Indeed... and this is more to the point... you suggested that people being taught to be responsible and respect others were less likely to have casual sex. Why would instruction in respect and responsibility result in less casual sex with others. It seems to me you are suggesting that monogamy and "serious" sex has something to do with respect and responsibility. I am not seeing the connection.
Deep emotional intimacy adds meaning to sex for most people. Casual sex lacks this. Oh there is no doubt that deep emotional intimacy CAN add meaning to sex for people. But there is no guarantee on that, and there is no reason why a person cannot find other aspects of life which also add meaning, sometimes great meaning, for sex. Casual sex can be extremely fulfilling and meaningful. It all depends why one is engaging in sex.
It is interesting that you refer to emotional connection and commitment in such a negative way by using the word "entanglement". Why?
But it is clear that sexual acts actively promote emotional bonding (like in the Bonobos) between people and they do have a great impact on people's lives. That's sort of ironic. Yes I firmly agree that sex can promote the emotional bonding and impact on life for humans as it does for Bonobos. That is all casual sex and certainly not the same nature of emotional bonding and impact you were suggesting people should be taught and I was discussing. Teaching kids that sex should be tied in with longterm emotional bonds with singular people, in such a way that it makes choice of partner a longlasting and emotionally challenging situation... that that involves or will promote some form of respect and responsibility... is as mistaken as thinking abstinence will engender healthy sex choices. That's what I was talking about. My guess is you were not suggesting kids should be instructed in Bonobic models of sexual interaction. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Silent H Member (Idle past 5847 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Some people need the first type of solution. Some the second. I haven't found a way to provide both solutions at the same time. I think they could be. Sexual health education could and should be a part of regular health education. It should be straighforward and address the safety needs surrounding all sexual activity, which kids will face unless they plan to become priests. Either before or after physical health instruction, the teacher should instruct children that physical safety is not the only issue surrounding sex. Different cultures and individuals themselves will have additional issues which can be just as important. The stress then will be for children to engage with their families or close community to discover what social or moral (or spiritual) elements may be important for them. Clearly a school should not try and teach every possible culture, but they certainly can facilitate students' investigation of their own culture and its attitudes/issues surrounding sex. If this is known to be the way it is taught, many parents may be less hesitant, because they know the students are being sent back to THEM as sort of experts in sexual moral issues, rather than just being taught physical aspects and neglecting the reality that how they have sex might have an impact on their relationship with their family. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5862 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
I think they could be. Sexual health education could and should be a part of regular health education. It should be straighforward and address the safety needs surrounding all sexual activity, which kids will face unless they plan to become priests. Either before or after physical health instruction, the teacher should instruct children that physical safety is not the only issue surrounding sex. Different cultures and individuals themselves will have additional issues which can be just as important. The stress then will be for children to engage with their families or close community to discover what social or moral (or spiritual) elements may be important for them. Clearly a school should not try and teach every possible culture, but they certainly can facilitate students' investigation of their own culture and its attitudes/issues surrounding sex. If this is known to be the way it is taught, many parents may be less hesitant, because they know the students are being sent back to THEM as sort of experts in sexual moral issues, rather than just being taught physical aspects and neglecting the reality that how they have sex might have an impact on their relationship with their family. Great post Holmes, I agree with you... I think we have a societal interest in sexual education (unwanted pregnancies can have negative social and economic effects for a variety of reasons. Same thing with STDs).. I also agree that government shouldn't be teaching or legislating morality for the most part.. So send the kids to their parents and let them tell them whatever they want. The only problem with this approach is that the opponents of it are often people who refuse to acknowledge facts, evidence or reality.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
I personally (as in both the admin and non-admin modes) like your input, but it is considered bad form to quote entire messages, especially if they are the previous message, and even more so, if they are lengthy. Please confine your quoting to brief tidbits specificly relevant to your replies content.
Also, isn't there a better subtitle available, rather than a long string of "Re: Morality and punishing sluts"? Again, moderation messages are off-topic comments. As most always, if anyone feels the need to reply to this message, please do it at the "General..." topic, link below, or some other more suitable location. Adminnemooseus New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
It is more likely that I will have a greater respect and regard for a person whom I have developed some kind of personal relationship with, and will see and interact with on a regular basis, compared to a nameless person that I have no emotional relationship with and will never see again. quote: We are not talking about given individuals. We are talking about human social interactions and tendencies as a whole. In general it is much more likely that a given human will tend to have a greater respect and concern for a person they have an emotional connection to and will interact with regularly than a nameless stranger. This is clearly human nature.
quote: Probably.
quote: How can you have much regard for someone if you don't know them very well, or at all? How can you be responsible regarding your own sexual health if you don't know your partner well enough to have any idea if you can trust that they will also be responsible?
quote: Part of having all the information to make an informed descision about having sex with another person must include getting to know one's potential partner well enough to be able to reasonably conclude that they are going to be respectful and responsible. I don't really count "swinging communities" because these groups, as you have described them, seem to screen people in a way, and groups are able to enforce behavior better than a single person. In fact, I don't think I would count these groups as casual at all because everyone agrees ahead of time to adhere to certain standards, and the purpose of getting together is to have sex. It's planned.
Deep emotional intimacy adds meaning to sex for most people. Casual sex lacks this. quote: What you asked for was what casual sex lacked. Casual sex does not, by definition, contribute to deep emotional connection between people. It can't, otherwise it wouldn't be casual anymore. I do not dispute that other things in life can contribute to deep emotional connection, or that casual sex cannot bee meaningful nor fulfilling. But casual sex lacks deep emotional commitment between the participants, and that is what many people often say is a benefit of sex, and a reason to engage in it, at least some of the time.
It is interesting that you refer to emotional connection and commitment in such a negative way by using the word "entanglement". quote: Because it implies that you find emotional involvement inconvenient or undesireable.
But it is clear that sexual acts actively promote emotional bonding (like in the Bonobos) between people and they do have a great impact on people's lives. quote: So, since sex can and does promote emotional bonding and can and does have a large impact on many people's lives, we should let kids know that there is an emotional aspect to sex.
quote: When did I say we should be teaching that? Since when are a "long-term emotional bond with a single person" and "purely casual sex with lots of different partners with zero emotional committment" the only two possibilities?
quote: Haha, no. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-30-2005 03:31 PM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Silent H Member (Idle past 5847 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
In general it is much more likely that a given human will tend to have a greater respect and concern for a person they have an emotional connection to and will interact with regularly than a nameless stranger. Well I don't believe that at all. Often friends and family treat those they know with much less respect than they would total strangers. There may be more concern for whether something happens to a friend than a stranger, but that is different than how one treats (respect wise) those they know.
Probably. Perhaps you should unpack that. That was after all what I said was more to the point. Why would people taught to respect others and have personal responsibility be less likely to engage in casual sex? How is such an assertion any different than the moral wishful thinking of "teaching abstinence will lead to less sexually transmitted diseases"?
How can you have much regard for someone if you don't know them very well, or at all? I find that a very sad statement. You don't have much regard for those you don't know?
How can you be responsible regarding your own sexual health if you don't know your partner well enough to have any idea if you can trust that they will also be responsible? Oh its certainly better to know that another is responsible. You can do that without getting to know another person's name and cv. But that is besides the point. If one is responsible for one's own health, it doesn't matter much how responsible the other is. You know you can have sex with others in ways that pose less risk than eating at a restaurant right? How can you be responsible for your general health if you don't know the food preparer/seller well enough to have any idea that they will also be responsible? Germs are traded every day in every way. You have seem to have some unusual idea sex is more dangerous than other human social activities.
Part of having all the information to make an informed descision about having sex with another person must include getting to know one's potential partner well enough to be able to reasonably conclude that they are going to be respectful and responsible. Exactly how much info is that? How "well" does that require someone get to know another? And why does one's own responsibility not effect how much one really needs to know about another?
In fact, I don't think I would count these groups as casual at all because everyone agrees ahead of time to adhere to certain standards, and the purpose of getting together is to have sex. It's planned. Please don't try and discuss things you don't know. Such venues can be strict or not, but in no way differs from what you can find anywhere else. In the end the sex is not planned, and it most certainly is casual sex. Besides which there are open sex venues which are not just for swinging "couples".
Casual sex does not, by definition, contribute to deep emotional connection between people. It can't, otherwise it wouldn't be casual anymore. Notice the equivocation you make. Above you say deep emotional connection, then move on to say...
But casual sex lacks deep emotional commitment between the participants, and that is what many people often say is a benefit of sex, and a reason to engage in it, at least some of the time. Connection =/= commitment. I agree casual sex does not lead to commitment, but it most certainly can lead to connection. As an analogy one can have great connection to a restaurant where one had a fantastic experience, without feeling one has to eat there for the rest of one's life. I disagree that commitment is a benefit of sex and a reason to engage in it. If that one's reason one is seriously barking up the wrong tree. Commitment comes from so much more and may be totally devoid of sex.
Because it implies that you find emotional involvement inconvenient or undesireable. Why? The statement I made was in a specific context. I was not speaking about how I felt about relationships. Time to turn in your cracker jack diploma.
So, since sex can and does promote emotional bonding and can and does have a large impact on many people's lives, we should let kids know that there is an emotional aspect to sex. Sure, just not the one you pretend there is. Although to be sure I do believe that instruction should be to explain there are many other aspects to sex than just the physical ones, and that they should talk to their parents about these issues.
When did I say we should be teaching that? Your point to the other poster was that teaching kids respect and responsibility would lead to that, and that was a good thing. Thus it seems you were suggesting that they would be taught monogamy etc as part and parcel to r and r, because unless it was I don't see how r and r leads to monogamy etc.
the only two possibilities? I didn't say those were the only possibilities. I was for keeping such things out of discussion altogether for sex education. I just didn't see where r and r favored one over the other unless one presupposed such a thing, or taught it as an assumption. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: ...and you wonder why I ALWAYS regret responding to your posts. What a waste of time. I know what one of my new year's resolutions is.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
yeah... bonobos use sex like money and sex lke power and sex as a political tool and sex for food and sex with children and stuff. i'm sure she doesn't mean that.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
disclaimer for the terminology: fucking=sex for the pure physical release.
How can you have much regard for someone if you don't know them very well, or at all? well. some of us tend to respect all people until shown that they are not deserving of it. i think this is a prerequisite for such relations.
How can you be responsible regarding your own sexual health if you don't know your partner well enough to have any idea if you can trust that they will also be responsible? you could start by bringing your own barrier methods and using backups. never use anyone else's condoms is the rule i learned. especially as a woman.
But casual sex lacks deep emotional commitment between the participants, and that is what many people often say is a benefit of sex, and a reason to engage in it, at least some of the time. i would think that expending your "just fucking" with a casual partner would allow you more "quality, lovemaking" with your life partner. but then i don't really get the distinction between casual and committed sex. if it's purely physical, what's the issue? it's like masturbating with someone else. why does it have to be different? whay does it have to be hoodoo emotional?
Because it implies that you find emotional involvement inconvenient or undesireable. there are more important things in life than becoming wrapped emotionally around another person.
So, since sex can and does promote emotional bonding and can and does have a large impact on many people's lives, we should let kids know that there is an emotional aspect to sex. yes, but creating the false requirement for fairytale emotional sex is just like creating a fairytale about marriage. it creates false expectations. explain to them all the possible outcomes of sex. part of the problem with the way girls are raised in this country is that sex has to be loving and special and amazing while boys are raised to spread their seed. we have a serious flaw in communication and relation. tell both that emotional sex is common and possible and that it is also ok to just fuck. teach people to respect each other inherently and you resolve your problem. you also resolve hate and rasism and sexism and genocide. amazing.
Since when are a "long-term emotional bond with a single person" and "purely casual sex with lots of different partners with zero emotional committment" the only two possibilities? it isn't. but they are two possible choices. also, sex between friends not meant to create a different relationship and also casual sex just one time with one person and a bunch of other possibilities. they don't have to participate, but by giving them the choice, we empower them to be responsible instead of just rebelling.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
...and you wonder why I ALWAYS regret responding to your posts. because you always regret responding to people who question or challenge you. it's what you do.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminBen Inactive Member |
brenna,
please don't use another scruff between schraf and holmes as your own platform to give a commentary of your opinion on schraf. Schraf and holmes bickering while discussing an issue is one thing; jumping in to post your opinion of someone is something else. I know you know better. Please be more thoughtful. Next time will be a 24 hour suspension. Questions / comments, please post them to the "General..." thread as linked below. Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Silent H Member (Idle past 5847 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
...and you wonder why I ALWAYS regret responding to your posts. What a waste of time. I'm sorry what? Are you suggesting that that one quote was the entirety, or represented the entirety of my response to your post?
I know what one of my new year's resolutions is. I know what it should be. holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024