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Author Topic:   Questions about the living cell
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 888 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 31 of 182 (527551)
10-01-2009 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by slevesque
10-01-2009 5:53 PM


Re: Facts?
slevesque writes:

You should use the word energy instead of matter I think

Better still, you should talk about cells...

Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1835 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 32 of 182 (527552)
10-01-2009 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 5:34 PM


Re: Facts?
We are talking about a firmly established law of science that tells us that matter cannot be created

Could you please then explain the processes of pair creation and pair annihilation? That is where two photons (not matter) combine to create an electron and a positron (both matter), and the reverse process where two particles of matter annihilate to give two photons (commonly referred to as matter/anti-matter annihilation)

You cannot postulate something that you have never observed, nor is testable (the 'Big Bang') against a law that has been repeatedly tested and observed countless times and conclude that 'it isn't applicable'.

Actually, I can It's quite simple to do this when one actually understands the physics behind both statistical mechanics and general relativity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 5:34 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:00 PM cavediver has not yet responded
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 33 of 182 (527553)
10-01-2009 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by cavediver
10-01-2009 5:11 PM


Re: Facts?
Incorrect - matter is being created and destroyed at every point of the Universe every moment of time

Even your evolutionist comrades should disgree with that. You are dead wrong.

Quote: (from PhysicalGeography.net)

"First Law of Thermodynamics

The first law of thermodynamics is often called the Law of Conservation of Energy. This law suggests that energy can be transferred from one system to another in many forms. Also, it can not be created or destroyed. Thus, the total amount of energy available in the Universe is constant. Einstein's famous equation (written below) describes the relationship between energy and matter:

E = mc2

In the equation above, energy (E) is equal to matter (m) times the square of a constant (c). Einstein suggested that energy and matter are interchangeable. His equation also suggests that the quantity of energy and matter in the Universe is fixed."

Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. You were poorly taught.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2009 5:11 PM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:04 PM Calypsis4 has responded
 Message 38 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2009 6:05 PM Calypsis4 has responded

    
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 34 of 182 (527554)
10-01-2009 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by cavediver
10-01-2009 5:57 PM


Re: Facts?
That is where two photons (not matter) combine to create an electron and a positron (both matter), and the reverse process where two particles of matter annihilate to give two photons (commonly referred to as matter/anti-matter annihilation)

That is a transformation and/or division, not a creation.


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 Message 32 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2009 5:57 PM cavediver has not yet responded

    
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 35 of 182 (527555)
10-01-2009 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Parasomnium
10-01-2009 5:55 PM


Re: Facts?
Better still, you should talk about cells...

Right. How did they originate?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 5:55 PM Parasomnium has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2009 6:09 PM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

    
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 888 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 36 of 182 (527557)
10-01-2009 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 5:59 PM


Re: Facts?
Calypsis4 writes:

Matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

To cut a long story short: the first law of thermodynamics says that God could not have created everything ex nihilo. Fine.

Now back to cells?


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 5:59 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:33 PM Parasomnium has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 37 of 182 (527558)
10-01-2009 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Parasomnium
10-01-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Some answers
Crystal clear, thank you. I couldn't have said it better.

That explains a possible process but not the origin of chromatin. What is its origin and how did it assemble into DNA to generate life?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 5:13 PM Parasomnium has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Dr Jack, posted 10-01-2009 6:08 PM Calypsis4 has not yet responded
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1835 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 38 of 182 (527559)
10-01-2009 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 5:59 PM


Re: Facts?
Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. You were poorly taught.

Oh dear, then I think my old students are in trouble

I think both you and PhysicalGeography.net need to learn some definitions, and some advanced physics...

That is a transformation and/or division, not a creation.

No, it is a creation. That is why we call it "pair creation".

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 5:59 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:14 PM cavediver has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 39 of 182 (527560)
10-01-2009 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by cavediver
10-01-2009 5:57 PM


Re: Facts?
Actually, I can It's quite simple to do this when one actually understands the physics behind both statistical mechanics and general relativity.

Only if you're playing mind games but not if you're dealing with reality.

The 'Big Bang' was not observed. It is not testable, repeatable, nor verifiable. The 1st Law of Thermodynamics is.

You need to concede this point, friend.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2009 5:57 PM cavediver has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 297 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(1)
Message 40 of 182 (527561)
10-01-2009 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:05 PM


Re: Some answers
Chromatin does not "assemble into DNA", chromatin is a complex of DNA, associated RNA and proteins (particularly histones).

Life does not require such a complex.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:05 PM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1835 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 41 of 182 (527562)
10-01-2009 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:01 PM


Re: Facts?
Right. How did they originate?

We've already seen that, in the video we showed you. The question is, can we progress from the rudimentary genetic material of the protocell to RNA/DNA?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:01 PM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

  
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 888 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 42 of 182 (527564)
10-01-2009 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:05 PM


Re: Some answers
Calypsis4 writes:

What is its origin and how did it assemble into DNA to generate life?

You may be putting the cart before the horse. You assume it is vital for life to start. But maybe first life was simpler than that and didn't need it. Maybe it only evolved after life became a little more complex. Cavediver's film already hinted at such a process.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:05 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:15 PM Parasomnium has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 43 of 182 (527565)
10-01-2009 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by cavediver
10-01-2009 6:05 PM


Re: Facts?
Oh dear, then I think my old students are in trouble

You said it!

"The first law of thermodynamics, an expression of the principle of conservation of energy, states that energy can be transformed (changed from one form to another), but cannot be created or destroyed". Wikipedia.

"The Laws of Thermodynamics
First law: Energy is conserved; it can be neither created nor destroyed." Purdue University science.

Now how many sources do I have to quote before you realize that you are in error and matter is NOT created anywhere or at any time in the universe?

Not only so but the terminology 'pair creation' is innacurate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2009 6:05 PM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2009 6:28 PM Calypsis4 has responded

    
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 888 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 44 of 182 (527566)
10-01-2009 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:07 PM


Re: Facts?
Calypsis4 writes:

The 'Big Bang' was not observed. It is not testable, repeatable, nor verifiable. The 1st Law of Thermodynamics is.

You need to concede this point, friend.

He doesn't, for two reasons.
(1) He's right. For your information, Cavediver is our resident physicist/cosmologist. He's a professional, he really knows what he's talking about here. (Hint: engage him about cells, you might stand a chance.)
(2) It's off-topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:07 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:19 PM Parasomnium has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 45 of 182 (527567)
10-01-2009 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Parasomnium
10-01-2009 6:09 PM


Re: Some answers
You may be putting the cart before the horse. You assume it is vital for life to start.

Give us an example of a living organism without it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:09 PM Parasomnium has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:20 PM Calypsis4 has responded
 Message 83 by Dr Jack, posted 10-02-2009 5:24 AM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

    
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