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Author Topic:   The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 369 of 410 (537221)
11-27-2009 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Dawn Bertot
11-19-2009 11:01 PM


Free Will
A lot of the argument in this thread seems to revolve around the idea that free will applies to our control of our own actions.
If so, what is Paul talking about in this passage?
Romans 7:15-24 writes:
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
The apostle seems to be asserting, very vigorously, that his free will applies only to what he wants to do (his thinking), and not at all to what he actually ends up doing (his actions.) Is he mistaken in this assertion? Does he require correction from someone who knows more theology than him?
Do we go to hell for our actions? Or for our intentions? Or just by default, pending intervention from some Higher Power....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2009 11:01 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-28-2009 1:34 AM Iblis has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 374 of 410 (537260)
11-28-2009 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Dawn Bertot
11-27-2009 9:00 PM


Lying about lying
Is lying always a sin?
John 7:8-12 writes:
Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
When he had said these words unto them, he abode [still] in Galilee.
But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?
And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.
When might lying not be a sin?
Matthew 21:1-3 writes:
And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose [them], and bring [them] unto me.
And if any [man] say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
Could lying be a virtue?
James 2:25 writes:
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Would lying to save Jewish children from genocide be a very great virtue?
Exodus 1:18-21 writes:
And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women [are] not as the Egyptian women; for they [are] lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.
Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses.
Does God tend to lie?
Jonah 3:10 writes:
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.
What justification could be given for this?
Jonah 4:11 writes:
And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and [also] much cattle?
Is this an important point in theology, or just an irrelevant misunderstanding?
Luke 11:29 writes:
And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
Which side in this debate is liable to end up in hell?
Matthew 24:35-46 writes:
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Seriously. Not a joke.
Luke 13:26-27 writes:
Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-27-2009 9:00 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-28-2009 2:23 AM Iblis has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 379 of 410 (537275)
11-28-2009 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Dawn Bertot
11-28-2009 2:23 AM


Lying About Free Will
reverse terminology to demonstrate the opposite point
So Paul is OK here, even though he is not telling the literal truth, because his intention is not to deceive?
the operative words are "YET.' and "had gone up"
So Jesus is OK here, even though the effect is to deceive and he knows it, to the point of disguising himself, because he tells the literal truth?
Perhaps God overlooked her lying
So then, what's left? Who is not OK?
I bet it's this guy
Matthew 5:22 writes:
but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-28-2009 2:23 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-29-2009 3:17 AM Iblis has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 406 of 410 (538817)
12-10-2009 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by Hawkins
12-08-2009 5:14 AM


hell is a place where God is absent.
Disagree very strongly! God, by definition, is everywhere. There is no place outside the presence. God is immanently present in hell. How? In the fire.
Hebrews 12:28-29 writes:
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
For our God [is] a consuming fire.
Even those making it to the state called heaven via mere faith are liable to find it a hot unpleasant "purgatory" for some time before what's left of them acquires any bliss.
First Corinthians 3:13-15 writes:
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Might be a good idea to store up teflon in heaven then, yes? Unless you want to be barbecue
First Peter 5:8 writes:
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Hawkins, posted 12-08-2009 5:14 AM Hawkins has not replied

  
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