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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
AZPaul3
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Posts: 4740
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 106 of 257 (865936)
11-02-2019 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Thugpreacha
11-02-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
It is a story of a people who actually had a god (God) reveal Himself to them.

You almost had it right to begin with then went and ruined it with the above.

the Bible is not simply some storybook of a compilation of goatherder stories describing the various ideas about a god whom they believed in.

Now it's correct.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-02-2019 4:14 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 257 (865938)
11-02-2019 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
11-02-2019 7:39 AM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Jar writes:

Think Phat. If GOD created all that is, seen and unseen then why would that GOD treated humans as something special?

how do you explain john 3:16 in light of that?

Once again you come back to the idea that "a God should be of value to Phat?"

The bible supports the idea that God cares about humanity. Nevermind phat.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 11-02-2019 7:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 257 (865939)
11-02-2019 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
11-02-2019 7:39 AM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Double Post

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 11-02-2019 7:39 AM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31646
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 109 of 257 (865940)
11-02-2019 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Thugpreacha
11-02-2019 8:10 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:

how do you explain john 3:16 in light of that?

By actually reading what is written and not just quote mining and taking stuff out of context. I look at that section and note the changes in voice and also the rest of the material the Apologists tend to leave out.

quote:
John 3:16-21

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


The condemnation being discussed is based on behavior. It is saying that if you believe in Jesus then behave like Jesus and stop doing evil.

Quoting John 3:16 out of context is a classic example of the misdirection and misrepresentation of the Bible that is the Hallmark of the Apologists.

Phat writes:

The bible supports the idea that God cares about humanity. Nevermind phat.

No Phat, the Bible does not support that. Parts of the Bible support that and other parts of the Bible refute that. Look at Genesis 1. There God looks at all creation and finds it good.

It goes back to the fact that despite what the Apologists try to market, what is actually written does not have a single purpose or always point towards Jesus.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15565
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 110 of 257 (865943)
11-03-2019 4:32 AM


So what do you think of this, Phat
John Pavlovitz

This may be what Franklin Graham says Christianity is.
It may be what Paula White wants you to believe Christianity is.
It may be what Bible Belt pastors screaming from behind pulpits claim that Christianity is.
It may be what Donald Trump wants to pretend that Christianity is.
It may be what it has been too many times in the past two thousand years, when opportunistic hucksters like these have commandeered it.

It’s just not what Jesus says it is.


Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 257 (865949)
11-03-2019 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by PaulK
11-03-2019 4:32 AM


Re: So what do you think of this, Phat
OK, I've got one for you! And what's really surprising me is that I'm finally finding myself agreeing with you guys. (In some things, anyway. )

Podcast by Secular Humanist Apologist You will like it. Listen and tell me what you think.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by PaulK, posted 11-03-2019 4:32 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 11-03-2019 12:47 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7129
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 112 of 257 (865953)
11-03-2019 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Thugpreacha
11-03-2019 9:54 AM


Re: So what do you think of this, Phat
Well I listened to a few random minutes and I didn't like it.

Am I supposed to be surprised that humanists/atheists can be good people with decent values? If he's saying that American Christians think that they aren't and don't then they're bigoted arseholes not worth listening to.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-03-2019 9:54 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 11:32 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 113 of 257 (865955)
11-03-2019 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Thugpreacha
11-02-2019 4:14 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:

...the Bible is not simply some storybook of a compilation of goatherder stories describing the various ideas about a god whom they believed in.


Yes it is. If you want to argue otherwise, you need an actual argument, not just an assertion.

Phat writes:

It is a story of a people who actually had a god (God) reveal Himself to them.


So is the Qur'an. So is the Book of Mormon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-02-2019 4:14 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 114 of 257 (865958)
11-03-2019 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Thugpreacha
11-02-2019 4:20 PM


Re: Oh and about the Snake
Phat writes:

1) Assuming we are discussing a book of origins and a growing understanding of who God is, the consensus seems to be that God cannot lie.


That's a bizarre assumption. We're talking about an example in which God clearly did lie (or was mistaken or changed His mind, etc.)

Why do you believe the part where it says that He cannot lie and reject the part where it says that He did? How does that square with taking the Bible as a whole?

Phat writes:

If as you claim God did in fact lie, what do you expect people to do? Worship the snake?


Why do you go immediately to worship? I expect people first to acknowledge what the story actually says. I also expect them to question whether the connection between the snake and "Satan" has any value.

Phat writes:

Throw all apologetics, gods, and Gods out the window and go watch the ducks?


Yes, I hope people would do that.

Phat writes:

I am not challenging what the book says.


Yes you are.

You are constantly scoffing at the idea that the snake told the truth. He plainly did. And you are rejecting the idea that God lied because you have cherry-picked somewhere else where it says He cannot lie.

Phat writes:

I am challenging what you get out of it and why you defend it simply because "the book says it".


Well, the book does say it. Why would I complicate that?

Phat writes:

You know all too well what a lot of apologetics teaches.


Of course I do. How else would I know that they're making it all up?

I'm not asking you to explain what the Bible really, really, really means (as opposed to what it says). I'm asking you to think about what the apologists have been telling you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-02-2019 4:20 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 115 of 257 (865959)
11-03-2019 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Thugpreacha
11-02-2019 4:29 PM


Re: Becoming My Own Apologist
Phat writes:

Upon further reflection, I am not defending what the book says. That is your job.


No it isn't. All I have to do is quote what it says. If you think it "means" something else, the responsibility is entirely on you to make your case.

Phat writes:

I am defending the idea that the ones with the Spirit are the fiery preachers, anointed teachers, and wise prophets of the modern age.


Again, you're not defending; you're asserting.

Phat writes:

... I will defend absolute truth.


Again, you don't defend it; you just assert it.

Phat writes:

For that reason, I reject the snake story described the way you describe it.


But I don't "describe" it. I quote it.

Phat writes:

You are and have always been a contrarian. ( adjective contrarian
opposing or rejecting popular opinion; going against current practice. )


The opinion and practice among scholars is that the Bible is not to be taken as a "whole". It's your fundamentalist view that is contrarian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-02-2019 4:29 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 116 of 257 (866017)
11-04-2019 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Tangle
11-03-2019 12:47 PM


Bart Campolo
Tangle writes:

Well, I listened to a few random minutes, and I didn't like it.
Am I supposed to be surprised that humanists/atheists can be good people with decent values? If he's saying that American Christians think that they aren't and don't, then they're bigoted arseholes not worth listening to.

No. But you are too damn impatient. You think you have it all figured out. I am 60, and I learn slowly yet thoroughly.

And I believe that Secular Humanists and Christians both can learn from each other and that this is God's plan from the get-go. You, of course, would argue that its just reality and that my "God Character" has absolutely nothing to do with it, but my point is that you need to trust me enough to listen to a few of these sources, which I put online here at EvC. Listening to a podcast this morning, I was intrigued by the content of the communication. Which (correct me if I'm wrong) you are unamazed about since you always trusted secular humanist wisdom.

Fair enough.

Let me recap how this all came about.

Our boy ringo, my internet thorn in the flesh, challenged me to find an "honest Christian Apologist." (I started this thread to chronicle my findings)

I went through several. Honestly, I found the same basic schpiel from each one and was coming to a slow realization that you guys were right...but remained determined to find my honest apologist since I am a believer who remains true to my world view. I am, however, more open-minded than most evangelical and conservative Christians (remember that I consider myself more moderate than traditional), and I do pray to God (I prefer to call it "commune with God") on a near-daily basis.

Thus, I will attribute my finding this "honest apologist" to God. The irony is strong. I was searching for an honest Christian Apologist.

I had listened to Dr.Ravi Zacharias (whom Theodoric exposed as a man with flaws) yet whom I still have some respect for his intelligence. I took into consideration his previous dishonest actions, yet evaluated his ministry as a whole and the message contained through it.

I moved on to Dr.Frank Turek. His podcasts were all right, but I was more impressed with the counter-arguments from skilled atheists such as Matt Dillahunty. While not ready to dismiss the Christian Apologetic as "making stuff up" as you guys seem to do, I felt I needed to search deeper. Ringo, of course, claims that were I honest with myself, I would agree with EvC's line of reasoning. Still, you forget that I have experienced what I truly believed and believe to be supernatural (or at least unexplained) events that grounded and solidified my faith.

To continue.

Turek was unconvincing because he was a bit too smug. He learned from the late Dr.Norman Geisler, considered by the mainstream to be one of the best, as was Josh McDowell, but I knew that either of those two would not impress the arguments presented by EvC and by Matt Dillahunty.

I found Dr.Sean McDowell, Josh McDowells, son. (Why are they all Doctors, anyway? ) and upon listening to his podcasts, found a more modern type of apologist who, through confronting today's college youth culture, is more open-minded as to what the cultural zeitgeist has become.

Through the Christian Apologist, I found an interview with the secular humanist apologist whose Dad is an Evangelical. Bart Campolo is an honest apologist. (as is Sean McDowell, in my opinion)


LOSING FAITH AND KEEPING FAITH: SEAN MCDOWELL AND BART CAMPOLO

For those of you who wish to skip the Christian Apologetics and move directly to a secular humanist world view, might I suggest this episode? It reminds me of how we grew up in high school....nerdy white guys with an overactive imagination discussing how to improve the world. It is, after all, optimistic.

The Social Impact Of The Internet with Hank Green

quote:
On this week's episode, Bart Campolo introduces that conversation, in which he and Hank talk about individuals versus groups, how to get on the same page with people in your life, how to make the most of your talents and opportunities, and how to humanize the internet.

Hank Green is a web content producer, vlogger, and now author. His new book, out now, is called An Absolutely Remarkable Thing.



Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 11-03-2019 12:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 11:39 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 144 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2019 3:40 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 117 of 257 (866018)
11-04-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 11:32 AM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

While not ready to dismiss the Christian Apologetic as "making stuff up" as you guys seem to do, I felt I needed to search deeper. Ringo, of course, claims that were I honest with myself, I would agree with EvC's line of reasoning.


I claim that if you were honest with yourself you would agree that the apologists are making stuff up. If it isn't what the Bible says, it's made up. It really is that simple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 11:32 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 11:49 AM ringo has responded
 Message 119 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 11:56 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 118 of 257 (866019)
11-04-2019 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
11-04-2019 11:39 AM


Ringos Ongoing attempt to win an argument using a book
"It" is anything but simple. Take Karl Barth for example. You can somewhat smugly stand on your assertion that the book says what it says, but you cannot argue that what it says is plainly and simply what it means. The reason being is that you don't even believe that the characters exist outside of the book. Thus, what leg have you to stand on?

The book?

Try again. If you understood Karl Barth, you would understand the road that led to my argument. After all, he was not simply a character in a book. Nor is Jesus.

At this point, I need to stop. I'm not even sure what the argument is between you and I. All I know is that I disagree. And don't accuse me of ignoring the message. I will testify in court that I do not. (apart from not giving away every material possession I have, which is patently ridiculous. ) If Jesus cares to prosecute me, He has every right. You, on the other hand, need to stop using the book against Christians. You have a warped view of what you are even apologizing for.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 11:59 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 129 by jar, posted 11-04-2019 12:20 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13193
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 257 (866020)
11-04-2019 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
11-04-2019 11:39 AM


Re: Bart Campolo
Add By Edit: The reason we don't believe that what we say is made up is that we are defending a belief. Throw Your Evidence Away. It does not help the argument.

In addition, the jury has not yet concluded that it is valid. The Jury has both Christians and Secular Humanists on it. And mind you, the book is not the one on trial. It is also not the prosecutor. it is the defense Attorney. Cherry-picking is allowed by the judge.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 11-04-2019 12:03 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17538
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 120 of 257 (866021)
11-04-2019 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Thugpreacha
11-04-2019 11:49 AM


Re: Bart Campolo
Phat writes:

You can somewhat smugly stand on your assertion that the book says what it says, but you cannot argue that what it says it plainly and simply what it means.


Naturally, if you try to reconcile the Bible with your made-up theology you're going to end up with a tangled mess. That doesn't mean that the Bible itself is a tangled mess. What it is is a collection of discrete writings. Any attempt to reconcile them is bound to require adding complications on complications on complications.

The complications are in the false linkings, not in the Bible itself.

Phat writes:

The reason being is that you don't even believe that the characters exist outside of the book.


The first thing you need to understand is that my beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with it. You're just using my lack of belief as an excuse for dismissing what I say without thinking about it.

Phat writes:

If you understood Karl Barth, you would understand the road that led to my argument.


So explain Karl Barth.

Phat writes:

I'm not even sure what the argument is between you and I.


Read the topic title. I've been asking you for an example of an honest apologist - e.g. one who doesn't try to explain Genesis 2-3 away. So far, all you've produced is a long list of names and no arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 11:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-04-2019 12:01 PM ringo has responded

  
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