Morality without God is impossible

I have no reason to doubt that animal life can be impacted with it as well. They are conscious creatures. We can see that when humans interact lovingly with pets it changes their character and I have no reason to think that if God still small voice is a ubiquitous feature in our world that it couldn't have an affect on life other than humans. I understand your point that they were neither right or wrong as that was simply a part of their culture. However you also seem to agree that slavery itself was wrong regardless of the cultural understandings.

..and you know that how? I don't question that we are heavily affected by our particular cultures, but that doesn't also negate the belief that there is a universal right and wrong that always existed outside of cultural influences.

I see the term soul as being synonymous with consciousness. Isaiah does talk about the wolf laying down with the lamb although I do understand that as metaphorical. Paul writes about the renewal of all things.Here is another Genesis 1 quote.

quote:

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24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

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So yes, mankind is called to rule over other forms of life. We can see in the teaching of Jesus that rulers are to serve as servants with mercy and compassion. Personally, I am something of a hypocrite in this area as I should probably adopt vegetarianism but that doesn't seem to happening. I get it that likely they didn't see anything wrong with it. However, that's not the point. We both agree that it is wrong now and was wrong then whether people 2000 years ago realized that or not.From what I have read their were slaves who volunteered for the position as they had no other means have having food on an ongoing basis, but there were also those who became slaves when their nation was overrun by some other nation. It was also judged normal that female slaves would be used sexually by their masters. It was a mixed bag.

So you have no evidence. I look at what we do know in saying our sense of morality evolve but I also see it likely that there is more than just what evolves through human influence. The one with the power owned slaves. However, it boils down to a matter of faith or belief for both of us. Sure, but it was humans like the Christain Wiberforce who ended it.

I have never claimed to have hard physical evidence. What hard physical evidence do you have that precludes any outside influence. What hard physical evidence do you have for why we should care about people of very different cultures, religions, or forms of governance? Why should we care about other life forms? You can say it evolved, but it is only individual belief that any evolution involved is 100% the result of the human mind. For both of us it is belief without hard physical evidence

My personal belief, for what that's worth is consistent with quote from Paul I used earlier. It is about the ultimate renewal of all things. I know you disagree, but I see our consciousness, (soul if you like) as the real us that functions through our physical body, and continues on after this life. That would include animals.I have no idea about the concept or hell for animals or humans for that matter. I simply believe in a God of perfect justice and that this life will have an impact on the next. Are you then saying that slavery, or infanticide was moral 2000 years ago? I would contend that it has always been immoral whether the culture saw it that way or not. I have often thought of what I would have thought as a plantation owner in the American south 200 years ago. I'm pretty sure that I would have had slaves doing my bidding. However, that wouldn't have made it right IMHOL.

Obviously the problem in all of this is that we start from completely opposite world views. As you being a materialist there is no real possibly of a universal morality. As a theist I am quite open to the idea.

Sure, if you are going to understand it as C2 does. You know that I completely disagree with his views on that. I doubt that AI would advocate for genocide.

I didn't just say that it is a progressive understanding of the nature of God but also that it was a narrative. With God we can see a beginning, a plot and a climax. It is a story that give life meaning and purpose. Without God it is simply an historical account without any real beginning, without a plot and without a climax. It is simply an account of human history. It does not provide meaning or purpose. I disagree. Again, it goes back to the "Golden Rule" which exists in one form or another in pretty much all cultures whether it is followed or not. As humans with free will, we can push it down to the point that we can lose the memory of it, but it is always there calling us to respond to it.
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True, except that the Bible isn't all history. It mostly isn't so if there is no god then It loses most of its value. It becomes a commentary on social norms of the times.
​ Sure we can come up with our individual meaning and purpose. It might be any number of things, some good, some not so good and some bad. Hopefully we shuffle off with the world being better for us being here but ultimately whenever and however human history grinds to a halt, it will be meaningless.The Christian story is a story with meaning and purpose for our lives.

I can't see that you can classify everything in the Bible as mythological. That however is not an argument that has anything to do with the accuracy of Biblical accounts.However, a mythology can lead us to truth in a methodical way. I'd suggest that this is true in the Genesis accounts regarding creation.
Also Tolkien coined the term "true mythology" in regards to the resurrection of Jesus. Here is an account of that along with Lewis's view. Tolkien and Lewis on true mythology Certainly being a Christian shouldn't make anyone feel special, but clearly it appears that it often does. I can't speak for other religions but frankly the same can be said for atheists who can't be fooled by all this religious nonsense. Sure we can find meaning in our lives whether it being about making money, number of sexual partners or the love of having power over others, along with some positive things like being a good parent or to being admired for our altruistic efforts.However in the end if civilization is destined for oblivion one way or another then all we've done is part of that. There is just nothingness. There is no hope. The Christian story does give hope and I contend that there is a rational reason to believe that hope will be realized, and that there is an external purpose and meaning for human existence.​

Fine, but as in the parables of Jesus we can see a greater truth by understanding the mythical tale that Jesus gives us, so that we can understand a greater truth. I would say that there is no rational reason to believe that we are the result of mindlessness. If I'm not grown up at this point then it's probably too late.

That kind of put down is the most pathetic form of argument around.Out of curiosity oh wise one is the science that tells you how the scientific processes and laws came into existence.

..and that is your idea of a scientific answer.

I grew up in a culture that was essentially culturally Christian. I now live in a culture that is culturally secular.Sure the world I grew up had it's issues. Women didn't get a fair shake nor did aboriginals. That's better now. But, at the same time, kids could roam free in safety, I knew of no one that committed suicide. People were more social and more compassionate. I graduated high school at 5 ft 2 inches and 100 lbs and never was bullied. (I grew late. ) I never encountered people living in the street.As it was the post war years alcoholism was a problem largely because of PTSD. The other issues would I believe evolved I believe in the same they have anyway..The church of nothing else brought people together in an environment that projected the a sense of honesty, kindness and generosity that I just don't see in our secular cultures today.Our cities all have a large homeless problem, drugs are rampant and killing people and suicides are common place. Children ahve to be pretty much accompanied everywhere. I find it saddening that it is newsworthy when someone stumbles on to money that belongs to someone else and return it. It should be just assumed that they would.My conclusion is that a culturally Christian society, with all of its warts, provides a more compassionate society and contented society than what we have today.I have a hunch you will disagree. As far as religious stories are concerned We start out from very different perspectives. Frankly atheism makes no sense to me whereas theism does. With that as a starting point I have found that the Christian story makes sense of my life and the world I live in.