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Author Topic:   Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings
AZPaul3
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Posts: 5380
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 286 of 327 (882338)
09-18-2020 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Phat
09-18-2020 12:35 PM


Re: Trust and Belief In Humanity
Let the government play God.

The biggest cry in these mass killing scenarios is why nobody did anything to address the killer's mental issues prior to the killing spree. We keep seeing those mental health concerns glaringly pop up after the deed that signaled a major problem in the killer's head that went unnoticed.

This very kind of mental disconnect from reality is evident in whatiscrazycatholicname. He already doesn't know reality from his fantasies. An alter ego within his head is telling him dead atheists lied about their deepest inner feelings. That borderline tenuous grasp on reality can slip below sanity very easily if not addressed before he sets out to save us all from his fractured fears.

He needs to be entered on the "Crazy- Dangerous" list and his actions monitored to make sure he is not stockpiling weapons and that, being a catholic, he isn't associating with young boys.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5380
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 287 of 327 (882342)
09-18-2020 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Phat
09-18-2020 12:33 PM


Re: Evidence Based Belief and Refusal to accept anything unexplained
... because you already conclude that they simply cant happen.

No, not because it can't happen, Phat, but because every time we have seen these things for study they have ALWAYS turned out to be organic/chemical/structural anomalies within the structure of the victims brain.

There are no such occurrences shown to be free of such defects.

Since supernatural has never been shown, indeed has always been shown to be false, there is no reason to ever consider the supernatural as a viable explanation of anything, anywhere, ever.

... pending an enormously large and compelling body of facts in its favor which do not now appear to be evident, of course.

I won't hold my breath waiting on it.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

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dwise1
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Posts: 4352
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 288 of 327 (882354)
09-18-2020 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Phat
09-18-2020 12:33 PM


Re: Evidence Based Belief and Refusal to accept anything unexplained
You claim to have experienced many of the same (or similar) unexplained events that I have, and you too easily rejected them...as does AZ Paul3, simply because you already conclude that they simply cant happen.

No, they are doing your job for you!

quote:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Instead of grasping any little thing that you do not immediately understand and proclaiming it to be supernatural and hence proof of or evidence for your beliefs in the supernatural, you need to be testing and vetting each and every one to the fullest extent. You are not the only one who pays the price for not doing your duty (people dismiss you as a religious nut), but your religion and gods also pay the price of being dismissed as nonsense. As Saint Augustine is quoted from "De Genese ad litteram" (fourth century -- follow link for more complete text):

quote:
It very often happens that there is some question as to the earth or the sky, or the other elements of this world -- respecting which one who is not a Christian has knowledge derived from most certain reasoning or observation, and it is very disgraceful and mischievous and of all things to be carefully avoided, that a Christian speaking of such matters as being according to the Christian Scriptures, should be heard by an unbeliever talking such nonsense that the unbeliever perceiving him to be as wide of the mark as east from west, can hardly restrain himself from laughing.

And the real evil is not that a man is subjected to derision because of his error, but it is that to profane eyes, our authors (that is to say, the sacred authors) are regarded as having had such thoughts; and are also exposed to blame and scorn upon the score of ignorance, to the greatest possible misfortune of people whom we wish to save. For, in fine, these profane people happen upon a Christian busy in making mistakes on a subject which they know perfectly well; how, then, will they believe these holy books? ...


I have myself seen or heard of many such "inexplicable-ergo-supernatural" things; eg:

  • Two Christian fundamentalist testified to me separately how they had both personally fought against real demons who were holding them down, immobile and unable to cry out for help, just as they were awakening. Indisputable proof of the supernatural!

    Neither had heard of sleep paralysis nor wished to hear about it. But enough people have so they just either laugh out loud or back off for fear that the lunacy might be contagious.

  • I saw a miracle in the sky over a mountain on fire. There was a plume of thick smoke rising up from the mountain until it stopped and started to spread out. Nestled right on that of that dirty smoke was a little pure white cloud. Miracle!

    Actually, that was a pyrocumulus cloud. Quite common and nothing supernatural about it.

  • Out in the dry desert with clear skies, I watched a small cloud suddenly appear, grow, then shrink and disappear, only to reappear within minutes. Over and over again. Not that could not have been natural!

    Actually, yes it was quite natural. A mass of air moving above and below a thermocline.

  • One afternoon I was driving east when I saw a multicolored amorphous apparition appear in the sky like a rainbow only forming a blob. A divine vision!

    No. Stopping and looking at it more closely, I could see that it was a cloud that was acting as a kind of projection screen for sunlight (coming from behind me) that had been refracted to form a spectrum of colors.

  • There are rooms that are haunted. Everybody who enters the room feels dread and many also see apparitions out of the corner of their eye. Ghosties!

    No, infrasound. In one such room, it became haunted after air conditioning had been installed just outside. The dimensions of the room (this was in a basement as I recall) were just right to form a resonating chamber that amplified frequencies of sound below our ability to hear them, but our bodies can still sense them invoking an emotional response. Infrasound can also stimulate the eye causing visual hallucinations. That infrasound was present was proven by a rod being held horizontally on one end in a vise; that rod was vibrating.

  • Similarly, there have been several times when I could sense an earthquake seconds before it arrived. Am I psychic and can predict earthquakes?

    No, that would again be infrasound that my body was sensing before the actual shaking.

The main reason why our immediate response is to question and to look for a natural explanation is because so far every single phenomenon observed has proven to have a natural explanation.

It is your duty to test every event that you think could be supernatural. The damage you do by shirking that duty is not only to yourself.

Edited by dwise1, : added link for infrasound


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5548
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 289 of 327 (882356)
09-18-2020 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by dwise1
09-18-2020 5:59 PM


Re: Evidence Based Belief and Refusal to accept anything unexplained
Similarly, from my own experience: I was sitting in a car outside the bowling alley in Bentonville, Arkansas back around the time of the birth of Walmart. Cars were coming rapidly down the bypass, turning into tigers, pumas, lions, and jaguars and running like hell past me with glowing eyes and shiny teeth. It was thrilling and some amount of scary! But it wasn’t supernatural in the least! It was, instead, internal brain chemistry aided by that LSD I had taken a couple of hours before.
You just don’t need the “other.” You simply need to get into that dream state that is already right there inside your braincase.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5380
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 290 of 327 (882357)
09-18-2020 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Coragyps
09-18-2020 7:06 PM


Re: Evidence Based Belief and Refusal to accept anything unexplained
My man! … or Lady … depending on whatever side of the bed you’re on.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

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Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1164
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 291 of 327 (882384)
09-20-2020 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Phat
09-18-2020 12:30 PM


Re: Code
In general I'm not too fond of various "-isms" because they're often classifications of the world arrived at purely from armchair conjecturing based on little scientific knowledge and when I've spoken with philosophers they often ask me which of these early 20th century "-isms" modern physics tells us is true. Where to me the answer seems to be none.

From what I've read of physicalism I would say it is false in the sense that it can't be supported in light of quantum theory. Then again there seems to be a debate among philosophers as to what "physicalism" means, with once again that discussion seeming to take place independent of the actual science of physics so I'm not sure of its worth.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 292 of 327 (882387)
09-20-2020 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Son Goku
09-20-2020 8:47 AM


Re: Code
Does science give you a sense of certainty(even if tentative) that faith just never gave you? Or were you even brought up religious in the least?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5380
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 293 of 327 (882390)
09-20-2020 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Fuckdamods
09-18-2020 3:17 AM


it would be better there be no god at all than a god without the sacraments

Then you have your wish. The former is the better case indeed and is supported by a lack of evidence that should be there if the former were not true.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

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Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1164
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.9


(2)
Message 294 of 327 (882394)
09-20-2020 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Phat
09-20-2020 9:34 AM


Re: Code
I wasn't brought up religious no.

I wouldn't say I get a "sense of certainty" from science, I just enjoy it like I enjoy any hobby. It's more about how interesting it is rather than providing certainty or similar.

I will say though in addition that the notion of "faith" or "certainty provided by faith" are very American ideas to me. Although people in Ireland are very Catholic and especially more so in the past it doesn't play the same social function as it does in America, at least as far as I have gleaned from the net. Very Catholic people here don't ever really say how faith provides certainty in their life, it would be closer to the way Japanese people are with Shinto where it's a big part of the culture of being Japanese but there's less emphasis on metaphysical questions like "are Kami real" and "what do they want" etc.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 295 of 327 (882420)
09-23-2020 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Son Goku
09-20-2020 2:47 PM


How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
A wee bit of humor:

quote:
"Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over."

Also...

quote:
A scientist got into an argument with God...
The scientist said, "We have decided we no longer need you, as we can create anything in the laboratory just as easy as you can create something."
God said, "OK let's see who can create a human from dirt."
The scientist reached down and gathered up some dirt...
God said, "Hey! Get your own dirt!"


************
Son Goku writes:

I will say though in addition that the notion of "faith" or "certainty provided by faith" are very American ideas to me. Although people in Ireland are very Catholic and especially more so in the past it doesn't play the same social function as it does in America, at least as far as I have gleaned from the net. Very Catholic people here don't ever really say how faith provides certainty in their life, it would be closer to the way Japanese people are with Shinto where it's a big part of the culture of being Japanese but there's less emphasis on metaphysical questions like "are Kami real" and "what do they want" etc.


Sometimes I like to go off on philosophical rabbit trails and think abstractly and metaphorically. Other times I study arguments from different sides and draw my own conclusions about what I believe. I feel that belief deserves a spot beside evidence (as an alternative)
The bottom line in my approach to teaching, which I do not currently do though am cleared to do so...is to encourage people to think. Where I differ from jar, for example, is that I don't teach them to simply compare all religions as if they all fall under the category of human cultural invention. According to scripture, the Disciples did no different. (If they receive you they receive me and if they receive me they receive the One Who sent me.)

So I would take several opposing concepts from scripture. Light & Dark or Visible & Invisible, for example.
And I would use them to make a point which encourages free associative type thinking. This differs from Science in that its not objectively factual...and my critics may charge me with being dishonest through making stuff up.

My response is that what they teach only reinforces doubt. I market certainty in Jesus Christ.
They charge me with "making God up". I'm starting to think that it is useless to attempt to disprove this notion.

Edited by Phat, : actually thinking about what I post


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7959
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 296 of 327 (882424)
09-23-2020 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by Phat
09-23-2020 2:57 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
That's not teaching, that's evangelising.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 18801
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 297 of 327 (882432)
09-23-2020 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Phat
09-23-2020 2:57 AM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
Phat writes:

A scientist got into an argument with God...
The scientist said, "We have decided we no longer need you, as we can create anything in the laboratory just as easy as you can create something."
God said, "OK let's see who can create a human from dirt."
The scientist reached down and gathered up some dirt...
God said, "Hey! Get your own dirt!"


Genesis 1:9 says that God made the dry land appear. It doesn't say He made it. The creation stories suggest that He started with existing matter, just like we do.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

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Phat
Member
Posts: 14677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 298 of 327 (882435)
09-23-2020 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by ringo
09-23-2020 12:24 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
the authors had no concept of a universal Creator or of anything other than the ground they walked on. what else would you expect?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


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 Message 297 by ringo, posted 09-23-2020 12:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2020 1:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5380
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 299 of 327 (882437)
09-23-2020 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
09-23-2020 1:13 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
the authors had no concept of a universal Creator ...

Then why were they trying to writing about a universal creator?

But, I agree with you.

They had no concept of what they were supposedly writing about and their results showed the BS ignorance of their religious society and the inconsistencies and capricious nature of their deities all of which you fall for even though you know better, Phat.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 09-23-2020 1:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32970
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 300 of 327 (882443)
09-23-2020 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
09-23-2020 1:13 PM


Re: How much of secular philosophy is objectively true?
And in Genesis 1 the god and creation are all simply plot characters in a Just So Story meant to explain and codify the Hebrew Sacred Week and Sabbath.

The errors and omission and utter falsehoods found in Genesis 1 are irrelevant since their only importance or significance was to move the narrative through a cycle of six work days and one day of rest.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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