Is there such a thing as chance?

Which gets us back to the total lack of free will issue. Can’t have it both ways. Unless it was designed for chaos. Everything else is inconsequential, from being hit by a falling brick dropped off a 20 story building, to tripping over a crack in the sidewalk. Again what is free will as opposed to will -- your will is exercised whenever you choose ... -- what does free add to the equation? Will is nothing more than the conscious reaction to the perceived reality of the universe, the conscious interaction with that universe. I didn’t say or imply that, nor did you in your earlier post, I was just pointing out the apparent time lag in your perception versus your avowed immediate knowledge of doing bad. It doesn’t add up. We also have what is purely anecdotal evidence, without verification and without control for other factors, oh well. Again, this is just a blanket assertion based on (your) faith, and bears no necessary relation to reality.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Not everything though. But that is just my opinion at this moment in time. That is why I started this thread to try and learn some more about it.Couldn't it be that only somethings are "chaotic" (you say chaotic, I say free will)? These are not choices.
But after being hit, you, or othes around you will have some choices to make.
Free will, only relates to choices. "Free will", because God gave it to us freely, and we can freely choose. This does not mean there won't be consquences.Will, is what and how you want to choose, free will, is the God given ability to choose. That may be a scientific explaination, but it is weak, and has no proof. You are indicating that the universe might actually be something different than it is(which may be true, like heaven and hell).The words "conscious interaction" would indicate that we don't really have emotions, or we are dry robotic creatures that just react to our complex surroundings. It also indicates that there is no chance, or chaos. I know you weren't implying that, I was just trying to clear up a mostly complex issue, by setting the stage.Paul said it best, but even that is confusing:

tomatoee (, attack of the killer). Soitenly only some things need to be chaotic. Sub-atomic particles, for instance ... So I can operate with will and choose to do what I want and you can exercise free will at the expense of believing in a specific god. Sounds fair to me. The interaction could be pure emotional, flustered, white-eyed panic and it would still be conscious. Or it indicates the conscious realization that (at least) two courses of action are possible, together with a realization to some degree of the risks and benefits of the different choices — and that a first response answer may not be the best answer. One day I go outside and it is 40^oF and the next day I go out and it is 8^oF for no solid rhyme or reason, but I interact with it by dressing appropriately (while emoting verbally about it at the same time ... ) It is not complex to those of us who feel it is a non-issue. There are no issues less complex than non-issues, if you get my drift.enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

I am only trying to explain the spiritual dynamic of it. I don't expect you to see it. I didn't either, but now you walk with this useless knowledge, that some Jesus freak told you on the internet, and you can go see for yourself. Good or bad? God a non-issue?
I don't believe that for a second. Not in you or anyone else.

I walk my path and your walk yours. Neither of us can say that the one or the other carries useless information. Neither. Is a tree falling in the forest good or bad? Was the election of shwubby good or bad? or was it pre-determined? ... The subject was "original sin" - a non-issue in virtually every other religion.

I was just being sarcastic, and making fun of the possibility that you won't believe me, thats all. If you take what I say and walk with it, whether you believe in it or not, I am grateful. Does it make a sound? lol
Good or bad only relates to human choice.
The way I think right now, I would think that an election is not pre-determined. It may have happened already in another demension, but not predetermened. Really, I didn't know that, as I am not an expert on other religions. I do not even consider myself an expert in my own religion. I will ask some people I know about that one, that is interesting.
So Jews and Musslims do not believe in the fall of man?

And if a human decision determines whether or not a tree falls in a forest ... not all human decision can be based on {good\bad} only the moral ones. The choice of which bank to use is innocuous. A freely determined election. I was refering to the last one ... The concept is first seen in Hinduism, I believe, and was adopted by the Christian religion. My understanding is that Judaism does not include sin. Islam having evolved from Christianity does have sin, but I don't think they have the "original sin" element or the "all born to sin" element. Certainly all the other world religions that have not evolved from christianity or hinduism do not have sin. Buddhism (and it's offshoots) has karma, but that is a different {issue\process\factor}.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Not true. Every choice is a moral one. Some banks charge more than others. There is a kingdon way of handling your finances, and if your bank doesn't fit into that description, then you might be hurting yourself, or your pocket.My freind who believes in tything, once tried to get a mortgage in a bank, and the lady working there told him that the reason why he couldn't afford a house was that he was tything 10% of his income, and he should stop. LMAO, but she didn't realize it was because he was tything that he could even be there in the first place. Should he as a Christian choose that bank?Everything relates to good or bad in some sort of fashion, I challenge you to find one human choice that doesn't.Human descion would not dictate if a tree falls, unless it was a human cutting it down. Then it would matter.Or even this, the amount of pollution we put into our atmosphere has made that tree rot faster, or die quicker, so it did have something to do with it. So yes human decsion can affect even what we think is not affected.

Then there are a lot of decisions being made that are not choices. And the choice between two banks that are virtually identical in all ways from your personal perspective is ... ? Leap of logic there: no relation between tything and location, physical or metaphorical. Are you aware that Muslims consider it immoral to charge or pay interest on loans? This would make your friends bank immoral to the Muslim. Perhaps your friend should be careful with whom he does business. Equally to the point is that decisions are good for some and bad for others. Is it moral to make a decision that is good for you and bad for someone else? Vice versa? You want a gray world to resolve into sharp black and white, and it just doesn't operate that way.I choose to turn my head and look at the blank wall to the left this time instead of the blank wall to the right while thinking. The walls are identical. But who made the decision? The man operating the machine, the one running the plant, the owner of the plant, the designer of the plant, the people across the street from the plant, the people in the next state that didn't want the plant built in their backyard .... etcetera. Does the impact not also rest on the random factors of wind and rain that {concentrate\don't dilute} the pollution? Too many random elements there for a reasonable answer, imho, reasonable meaning useful to the people involved in all those little bit parts of the morality play.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

riVeRrat At work today I needed to hammer in a sheet of plywood and I had to decide whether to hang from the roof edge and use my left hand to drive the nails or climb to the scaffolding below and use my right.I chose left.What is the moral? On the drive back from work,I chose a right turn to take a stop at Tim Hortons instead of left for a direct return to the shop.What is the moral? I took the elevator and not the stairs. The moral?Things are never black and white.

That doesn't exclude it from being for God, or against God, good or bad.
We always have a choice. No choice is just an expression to define that you will not go back on your morals, or whatever. There are no 2 banks alike. You have to pick one based on some kind of reason.
In some small way it relates to good or bad.Same thing with the color of a car you pick, or anything. I see your point, but I know nothing of the musslim principal you mention. We as Americans try to give rights to people belief's. When you start trying to change them that's when trouble occurs, isn't that obvious from any side of the fence? Actually you choose to look at both walls, and for what reason? To see what was there, or just how blank it was? That is good, you are observant. Or maybe you are just a left sided thinker, which is who you are, it is good, since it is not bad. It wouldn't go against God for you to look to the left.If it is not good then it is bad, if it is not bad, then it must be good.Everything relates to something in some sort of way. Everything is connected to a thought, and or a reason. The reason can be analized at that particular moment. I think it is nearly immpossible to be without thought. I didn't say immpossible because I experienced this for about 3 seconds once. But out of 39 years of living, thats a big ratio.There is no gray area with God, it is meets his approval, or it doesn't. We can relate it to good or bad. Which brings us back to square one. Perhaps there is nothing random about the wind.Everyone that had something to do with that pollution, who knew it was wrong, is guilty. That is part of the reason why it is so difficult to be sin free, and exist in this world. That is why we needed Jesus to save us. For God loves us so much.

These things didn't offend anyone?
They weren't bad, so then they are good.There were many more things associated with those decsions than meets the eye.First off, you were working for a living. That is what God wants us to do, that is good.Second, when you went to Tim Horton's, was it allowable by your job? Were you stealing time? Did you have a break? If it was allowable, then it was fine to take a break during your work day which pleases God. you are also maybe pleasing someone else by earning a dollar, so it is good.Third. Stairs or elevator? Why would one take the stairs over the elevator, there has to be a reason, there are so many reasons, I won't describe them all here, but somehow it relates to good or bad.What no one has pointed out here yet, and I am surprised, that it can relate to both good and bad at the same time. Thats when we are forced with a tougher decsion. Then its a judgement call, after weighing the factors.Our brains process 60 billion bytes of information a second. Trying to say that a decsion is as simple as one single thought is just silly.
It all falls back to good or bad, or more precisely, with God, or against God.

My point made, thanks. If that is what you choose to believe. Yeah, so you can get rid of your guilt and shuffle off your real responsibility and get saved instead of taking the responsibility to take care of the problem.Now there's a moral choice.This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-24-2005 07:38 AM

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

quote:

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Everything else is inconsequential, from being hit by a falling brick dropped off a 20 story building, to tripping over a crack in the sidewalk. Again what is free will as opposed to will -- your will is exercised whenever you choose ... -- what does free add to the equation? Will is nothing more than the conscious reaction to the perceived reality of the universe, the conscious interaction with that universe.

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I'm not familiar with scripture that purposely discusses the free will concept. So far as I know, bible verses relating do not exist. 'Free will', 'will', 'choice', are all the same. We have the ability to choose within the confines of our setting.
In what way it is extraordinary, I cannot say. It just exists. So what. You are correct, putting emphasis on 'will' by describing it as free, does not make it more betterer.In my opinion, animals have it. Just on a different level.For the purpose of adding a little thought, only.

Briefly addressing 'sin', a term linked to the bible and meaning nothing more than error, flaw, and soSin: an often serious shortcoming : FAULT - according to Merriam Webster.Everyone has at least one.For information purpose only.