What's wrong with this picture?

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They framed the Constitution to protect all of humanity, including the little children, regardless of status.

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Um, did that include the lives of the slaves that nearly all of them owned?They framed the constitution, Buz, to protect white European males, first and foremost.

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When that care involves the horrible brutal torture death of another fully developed, body, soul, brain and all human being 3/4 of a year old which that mother has brought to be.

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First of all, even a full term baby is not "fully-developed".Second of all, do you support a woman's right to have an abortion much earlier in gestation so these kinds of procedures will all but disappear?Third of all, how many unwanted children have you adopted?Fourth of all, unless you believe that all of these unwanted pregnancies are immaculate coneprions, there are just as many men responsible than women.Did you know that the vast majority of pregnancies of underage girls are fathered by adult men?Fifth of all, are you willing to send hundreds of doctors to prison and hundreds of women to prison, or their deaths or sentence them to infertilty?

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No, noble men smile when good is done and their action saves the little helpless children, defenseless to save themselves.

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Smiling is one thing.Smirking is another.How many unwanted children have you adopted?

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I don't have a problem with anyone who is Pro abortion

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Being "pro-abortion" would seem to me to constitute thinking that abortion is a positive, good thing.I don't know anyone who is pro-abortion, and I would have a problem with anyone who did feel that way.I do know people who are pro-choice, meaning that while they do not like abortion and believe that as much as possible should be done to prevent it's being needed, it is their view that it is not the government's role to impose it's will and intervene in what should be a private matter between a women and her doctor.

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It is what those cells become that is important.

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Well, by this logic, there should be a law that requires the menstrual fluid of all women to be collected and searched for fertilized eggs that did not implant and were in the process of being flushed out of the body. At least half of all ofhese fertilized eggs end up this way.Similarly, IUD's should be banned because they prevent implantation of fertilized eggs.

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My old boss and his wife were forced to make that decision when her life was put in danger by her pregnancy. He was a Catholic and very pro-life, but they chose not to take the chance of mother and child both dying.

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Yep. When the shit really hits the fan, even the pro-lifers get abortions when they really, really need them.

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I?m insulted every time the mother is portrayed as just the fleshy outer covering of the sacred fetus.

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If you're insulted, then how do you think women feel?It's fetus-worship and woman hating, pure and simple.Women are nothing but the vessels for the god-like fetus. Women have no intrinsic value beyond said vessel as soon as they become pregnant.How facist!

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But what about that one? Any way you are looking at it a soon to be baby, YES A BABY, dies... Wheres the logic in that?

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So, what are you saying?Do you think that all of the menstrual fluid of every women should be collected and searched to find all the unimplantes fertilized eggs?Do you believe that IUD's should be banned, so that women will be more likely to have unwanted pregnancies?Tell me, how many unwanted children have you adopted?Do you support forcing girls and women to carry all pregnancies to term regardless of their desire or ability to do so?Do you support the death penalty? Additionally, do you support the death penalty for women who "murder" by having abortions, or for the doctors who perform them, and the nurses and other workers who assist (they are acessories to "murder").Do you support a massive social program whereby all of these unwanted children will be fed, housed, given medical treatment, and educated? This will raise your taxes significantly, seeing as we don't do that for the people who are here already.Do you support spending tax dollars providing thorough and early sex education to all children and free, easily-available contraceptives to all people who ask for them in order to greatly reduce the need for abortions?Please answer.

When the shit really hits the fan, even the pro-lifers get abortions when they really, really need them.

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Untrue.

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Read the message I was responding to.Mr. H's former employer was a Catholic and a serious pro-lifer, yet when it came down to it, he and his wife chose to terminate because to carry the pregnancy to term meant that there was a good chance both the mother and the baby would die.Also in this thread, Lizard Breath, obviously a pretty rabid pro-lifer, told us that his wife had to have an abotion as well.So, that's two examples of pro-lifers getting abortions when they really, really needed one.That makes them pro-choice, actually.Let me ask you, though. If a recent widdow just found out she was pregnant but carrying the pregnancy to term would seriously threaten her life, thus making the child an instant orphan, would you be able to look her in the eye and say that she should die rather than have an abortion?

So, what are you saying?

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Do you think that all of the menstrual fluid of every women should be collected and searched to find all the unimplantes fertilized eggs?

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Nope.

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Why not? Didn't you just say that any cell or group of cells was just as important as a human that is already here if it had the potential to become a human life?quoteo you believe that IUD's should be banned, so that women will be more likely to have unwanted pregnancies?

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There is a fine line between stopping a pregnancy then destroying one.

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Exactly.That's why you cannot simplistically say, "Life begins at conception and anything that prevents that life from developing is murder!"If you really thought this, then you would want to collect all menstrual fluid and search it for fertilized eggs.

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And By the way, I think if they were banned, women would be more careful and unwanted pregnancies would decrease.

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How naieve.I am sorry, but can you please just think about what you just wrote for a second?When you reduce the number of available contraceptive options, what on earth makes you think that the number of unwanted pregnancies is going to decrease?By your logic, places where there is no contraception at all would have the lowest birth rates.what do you think is the liklihood of this being true is?quote:Tell me, how many unwanted children have you adopted?

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Actually I think that is illegal considering I am turning 15 on the 28th.

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How many do you plan to adopt later in life, then?quoteo you support forcing girls and women to carry all pregnancies to term regardless of their desire or ability to do so?

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I think women should think about this before it happens. And if it is out of their control, (or some complication happens threatening their lives, or the babies) I think that it is in God's hands, and when her life is threatened it comes down to who she would rather let live the baby or herself.

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So, tell me why it is that the group of cells/zygote is considered 100% more valuable than the fully-formed woman which is incubating the cells?Why is her life worthless to you beyond as an incubator to the fertilized egg?Is that all you see pregnant women as? Fetus incubators with no inherent value of their own?quote: Do you support the death penalty? Additionally, do you support the death penalty for women who "murder" by having abortions, or for the doctors who perform them, and the nurses and other workers who assist (they are acessories to "murder").

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I do not support the death penalty, I feel that everyone deserves forgiveness. Just as God willingly forgives those who sin...

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It is good you are consistent.However, let me rephrase.Would you support life in prison for women who "murder" by having abortions, or for the doctors who perform them, and the nurses and other workers who assist (they are acessories to "murder")?quote: Do you support a massive social program whereby all of these unwanted children will be fed, housed, given medical treatment, and educated? This will raise your taxes significantly, seeing as we don't do that for the people who are here already.

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Yes.

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Since you have no idea what it's like to work for a living and pay taxes, you wouldn't know that to pay for all of the children which would be on the public assistance roles would require huge tax incereases which would probably cripple the economy.quote: Do you support spending tax dollars providing thorough and early sex education to all children and free, easily-available contraceptives to all people who ask for them in order to greatly reduce the need for abortions?

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Do I support spending tax dollars to provide sex education? Yes.

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Excellent.

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Would I rather support money going to teaching God's view on sex? Yes.

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God's view on sex?Which god's view on sex?

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Although contreceptives are are good in the sense of reducing abortions, they shouldn't be needed for the most part if only sex occurred after marriage.

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!I went on the pill because I was getting married!What makes you think all married people want to have seventeen kids?

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When the two married would be bonded so closely that a child would probably be great.

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A single child, or even several kids, might be great, for some couples, at the right time.Again, how do you think married people manage to have only one or two kids, spaced conveniently at two year intervals?

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Now since I took the time to answer these questions, can you answer them, I would love to see you view on this matter.

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I now know you are only 15, but I do think you have a frighteningly naieve and simplistic view of these matters.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-11-2003]

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To the first part of the question I'll stand on what I said that once the egg has been fertilized by male sperm then it's technically a human being at that point. It's not a grown-up, teen ager, adolecent, toddler or infant, just a newly developing human being.

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So, do you advocate collection of all menstrual fluid in order to search for fertilized eggs that didn't implant?Do you advocate the banning of IUD's because they prevent implantation of fertilized eggs?

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In fact, I bet if you did a survey of pro choice people, you'd find that 90% of them would be perfectly fine with a system in which there are no regulations on birth control (apart from health and safety issues), minimal or no regulation on "morning after" products, a small level of councelling for a pregnancy in its first few weeks, a moderate level for late first trimester, heavy councelling requirements for end of first to early second, and no abortion after that, except for the cases where the mother and/or infant's health and safety are concerned.

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I am 100% happy with this scenario, except to add that early and comprehensive sex education is critical for the reduction in abortions.

quoteThe more available and easier you make it for anyone to have an abortion for any reason, the less people are going to concern themselves with the responsibility of enguaging in intercourse and the more unwanted babies are going to be created and destroyed.[/quote]So, assuming proper sex education, and given the choice of using contraception to prevent preganncy and of having to go to the doctor and have have an outpatient procedure involving anesthesia, antibiotics, time off from work, etc., you really do believe that women will choose that abortion every time?You have very little respect for the intelligence of women.

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Is that nessessarily a bad thing?

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Yes, It is a bad thing to have more abortions and les preventive measures.

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I don't know but it seems that a lot of people in this forum don't want to be called Pro Abortion like it's some kind of Taboo.

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It's not a taboo.It's just not accurate.I would, however be willing to call myself Pro Legalized Abortion.How about we call the Pro-Lifers Anti-Woman, or Anti-Choice, or Pro-Government-Interference-In-Private-Medical-Matters?

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I thought the availability of low cost safe abortions was a kind and humane gift to desperate women to save them from the back alley shiesters. So if anything, I would think that being called Pro Abortion would be a desirable affiliation because it conveys something positive - compassion.

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No, the term "Pro-Legalized-Safe-Abortion" conveys compassion.The term "Pro-Abortion implies that we think it's a great and wonderful thing to have an abortion, which is not what any Pro-Choice person I have ever met or read thinks.

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Pro Choice = Pro Abortion = ending a human life.

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Is a fertilized egg which does not implant and is flushed out of the woman's body with menstrual fluid a "human life"?If so, do you advocate collecting all menstrual fluid to search it for these "human lives"?

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Rephrase the question, more specifically what does unimplantes mean?
Sorry for the unknowledgeable reply

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Fertilized eggs travel along the fallopian tubes and down into the uterus where they may implant themselves into the uterine walls.Roughly half of all fertilized eggs never become implanted and are therefore flushed out of the woman's body when she menstruates.It's disturbing to me that you are in your mid-teens but you don't seem to understand the basics of how babies are made.Here's a link:http://www.femalehealthmadesimple.com/FileTwoFinal.htmlWhen you reduce the number of available contraceptive options, what on earth makes you think that the number of unwanted pregnancies is going to decrease? By your logic, places where there is no contraception at all would have the lowest birth rates.
what do you think is the liklihood of this being true is?

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Yes, I agree not very likely, but you must admit, women in general would be more careful.

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Maybe they would, but being "careful" is a lousy birth control method.Using proven and safe contraceptives is a reliable birth control method.BTW, what do you mean by "being careful", anyway?How many do you plan to adopt later in life, then?

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No idea, I don?t know where I?ll be at that time but honestly I don?t see it happening. I know it?s pretty bad, considering me being against abortion, more for the baby?s birth and adoption, but I seriously don?t know.

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It's OK that you haven't made these choices yet, and I'm glad that you see the contradiction of your position; you don't want anyone to ever have an abortion, yet you think it's everyone else's responsibility to take care of resulting offspring, not you.I'll tell you, no matter if you ever adopt an unwanted child later in life or not if abortion is made illegal, you will pay in some fashion or another. Huge tax burden, higher crime rates, more homelessness, unemployment, poverty, etc.

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Iron Man:I think women should think about this before it happens. And if it is out of their control, (or some complication happens threatening their lives, or the babies) I think that it is in God's hands, and when her life is threatened it comes down to who she would rather let live the baby or herself.?

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quote: So, tell me why it is that the group of cells/zygote is considered 100% more valuable than the fully-formed woman which is incubating the cells?
Why is her life worthless to you beyond as an incubator to the fertilized egg?
Is that all you see pregnant women as? Fetus incubators with no inherent value of their own?

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DID I SAY THAT? DID I SAY THAT A HUMAN BEING, THE WOMAN IS WORTHLESS? I SAID IT IS BEYOND MY JUDGEMENT, IT IS HER OWN DECISION! BESIDES, I WAS TALKING WHEN THE BABY IS AT LEAST PARTIALLY FORMED, IF NOT FULLY. PLEASE STOP STUFFING THOSE HATEFUL WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!! Wow? Sorry for the caps but this is horrid.

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Well, perhaps I misunderstood when you said:

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I think that it is in God's hands, and when her life is threatened it comes down to who she would rather let live the baby or herself.

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I took this to mean that you believed that the mother should always die.I do think it is interesting, however, that when you are actually posed the tough questions, you become Pro-Choice:

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I SAID IT IS BEYOND MY JUDGEMENT, IT IS HER OWN DECISION!

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I would say life in prison is pretty harsh for any crime, but really I don?t know what to say? But yes It is murder, people have been killed In our legal system for murder. Not to say that murder is the choice, but it seems many people agree that murder deserves deeath, I don?t agree.

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So, when you said above that, "I SAID IT IS BEYOND MY JUDGEMENT, IT IS HER OWN DECISION!", if that woman went on to have an abortion, would you send her to prison for any length of time for murder?What about the doctor and nurses who saved this mother's life by terninating her pregnancy? Would you send them to prison?See, these are the logical and practical consequences of what you are saying.

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God's view on sex?

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Which god's view on sex?

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Mine.

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Well, lots of other people don't believe in your God and what your God has to say about sex. Nothing is stopping you from following what your god wants you to do, but you cannot demand that everyone else follow suit.

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Hmm, ok? But can you answer the question?

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What question is that?