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Murder - The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.Simple cut and dry definition. That's why in WWII it really wasn't murder when the Nazi party eliminated the Jews, Gypsies, vagabonds and all of the other social unwanteds of their society. In Nazi law it was legal under the guise that they were cleansing society for a better future.Same today. Abortion is not murder because it's not legally unlawful. Over 99% of all abortions are not performed because of extreme cases where the mother's life is in jeopardy, just her lifestyle. In the near future our society will become ever more desperate to clense ourselves of what we deem our own social parasites. Our view will probably focus more on economics as my generation suffers under the burden of paying to keep the baby boomers and gen X'ers alive on Socoal Security and welfare. We might turn to Euthenizing anyone not gainfully supporting the GNP. Existing as a blood sucking leech taking up valuable medical and monitary resources will be sure prescription for termination. We could euthenize all of the elderly like a tree does it's old leaves as it prepares to enter a transitional season. All perfectly natural if you view the human race as one giant multi-faceted organism. The Logan's Run concept makes a ton of sense if you are young like me and want to keep all of my money for myself instead of paying for the retired and elderly through myriads of government social programs.I don't have a problem with anyone who is Pro abortion as long as when the time comes for you to be aborted, you don't hypocritically throw up the same arguement to save your own lives that the pro-lifers are using to save the unborn. Because you ARE going to become a strain to OUR standard of living and social freedoms. We will practice what we have been taught and it will probably be legal by then.[This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 11-10-2003]

The unborn child is inside the mother but it is not part of the mother. It has it's own unique DNA identity unlike all of the cells of the host unit or "Parent" as you call it. The unborn fetus is using the host unit as it's primary means of survival by drawing all of it's needs from the host unit, but the host unit gains no value from the fetus and is actually relieved from the burden and strain once the fetus is removed via birth.In the same way, the elderly are not part of the viable society anymore but are simply using the society to perpetuate it's own existance by using welfare, social security, medicaid, medicare and who knows what else will pop up in the future - a Goverment run medical care administration?The host unit - viable productive society - gains no value from keeping the elderly alive and it even is relieved of the burden and strain once the elder liability is removed. No difference, just a slight technical reclassification of roles. No more a nightmare than abortion, is the Euthenizing of the unneeded. What gets me is how people try to split logical survival methodology with a moral scalpal by saying that abortion is a choice but "killing" the elderly is a nightmare.It's pretty cut and dry to me. Either you buy in to the "sanctity of life" arguement of the pro lifers and it's hands off of all non-natural death, except medical emergency situations that were addressed before Roe vs. Wade, or you join the ranks of the logical and learn that survival of the happiest, most viable and fit society is more important that kepping alive the unwanted, unneeded, young, old or unable amoung us.

Why Do Women Have Abortions?
- a statistical breakdown*
Responses listed as primary reason %Social Reasons (given as primary reason)
- Feels unready for responsibility 21%
- Feels she can't afford baby 21%
- Concern for how baby would change her life 16%
- Relationship problem 12%
- Feels she isn't mature enough 11%
- Has all the children she wants 8%
- Other reasons 4-5%TOTAL: 93%"Hard Cases" (given as primary reason)
- Mother's Health 3%
- Baby may have health problem 3%
- Rape or Incest 1%TOTAL:7%The mother's health catagory is also wide open as to what is deemed "mental health" vs. life in danger so I took liberty to include that into the 99%. Baby having an imperfection or defect was also included into the 99% because that does not endanger the mother's life.The source for the abortion totals were taken from a pro life site that claims it aquired it's data from "Source for statistics for 1973 through 1992: Stanley K. Henshaw, et al.,"Abortions Services in the United States, 1991 and 1992," Family Planning Perspectives, vol.26, no.3 (May/June 1994), p.101."I don't know if the above data is from the same study or it is just a contrived hoax by the pro-lifers so but the stats weren't just made up on the spot by me.I'm working to get the exact data on this but I know that I've read about some very agressive Euthen type legislation that is on the Hill right now although in backroom status. Again, I'm not saying for sure it's there and I will either refute my thoughts or give you a link where I at least read about the bill.If you take the 21% of all abortions performed becasue mother wasn't financially ready, times the 38,010,378 abortions done up to 1998, you get 7,982,179.38 abortions done because of lack of money. It seems to me that doing the same to the elderly would be just as efficient for our government as what it does for the unprepared mother.As far as the Pro Lawners" are concerned, cutting the grass is not the same as digging it up and throwing it away. A better one would be the Pro Tree'ers not wanting the timber cut down. Actually I've seen these nuts form human chains around stands of trees while the loggers stand back rev-ing their chain saws. Ironically, the same people willing to die for a douglas fir are some of the strongest proponents of abortion, so go figure. Hey, I think what's left of the old growth doug firs should be saved to, but I'm not willing to die for them. Neither am I ready to equate pro lifers with pro lawners because the loss of human life touches some right down to the soul while the loss of a stand of trees or a cut lawn only pisses off the radical enviormentalists. My thoughts might change if I ever find someone wailing in my back yard while holding my grass clippings in their tear soaked hands.[This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 11-10-2003]

I'm surprised that anyone thinking logically would call euthenizing the elderly a "nightmare" yet feel vehemently pro abortion.Think about it - you've got these crusty old geezers sitting in nursing homes just waiting to die, unable to wipe their own butts and if we terminate them you all say "Oh My Oh My!!". You can't do that - that's a cruel holocaust! Go to West Palm Beach in Fla. They call it's "God's little waiting room".Now we've got these unborn babies over here that haven't even had the displeasure of living yet, and once born can't even wipe their own butts but that's a woman's choice to abort there. You take any first year med student and give them an ultra sound and a pregnat mother 14 weeks along or more and I bet 100% of them could spot the human in the belly. 2nd year med students could probably get it down to a 2-3 week term identification and most 1st graders could point to the baby in the belly on an ultrasound for a term in it's second trimester. These same 1st graders could also identify the old geezer in the corner of the nursing home with equivelent accuracy.So if you take away the non-logical, highly subjective and volitile morale scalpal, what's the problem of saying lets have pro-abortion and pro- euthenizing?This is the kind of gobbly gook that you get when you bring everyone's own morale scalpal into the human life arena. Logically you say "All human life is sacred and it's hands off except when the mother's life will not survive if the pregnancy is carried to term" - as in a fallopian pregnancy, or "no human life is sacred and can be terminated at will by the choice of a parent, legal guardian or the government when the situation deems such to enhance greater society".Only those 2 options seem logical and trying to split down the middle seems an excersise in total fustration and divides otherwise great societies.[This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 11-10-2003]

I seen that web site but I picked the one 3 down from that on my seach results page. I'll check that one out yet this evening.You are correct in showing the difference in the Government's role in Abortion vs. Euthenizing. That was a very good point and well taken by me. I was looking at the reasons cited in that survey for why women have abortions and was drawing my eqivilency arguement from that.BTW - is there a spell check function on this forum because I know I'm really slaughtering some of these words.

I can dirrect you to a few politicians and one city admistrator here that fit your criteria nicely. Takers?

For the record - poor spelling will not be a criteria for human euthenization in my brave new world![This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 11-10-2003]

Man, that's a pretty big question and I'm pretty small when it comes to sweeping nation problem solving but I'll give you an honest off the cuff.First, if a woman doesn't get some type of proper pre-natal care just because she can't afford it, but she's determined to carry the child through, than that's a royal shame and yes, I would encourage every doctor currently enguaged in performing abortions to switch gears and go in to the pre natal field. Yeah that's going to cost big bucks from the government and it's unrealistic pie in the sky thinking on my part. My wife had the very best of care for both our kids and it hurts to see that not all can get sufficient provissions.As far as your second question, yeah, the needs of an infant and pre natal responsibility should be taught in school, but also the emphasis should be placed on the awesome scale of events that are put in motion when people enguage in sexual intercourse without the intent of raising the offspring if they should appear. Now I'm not talking about Biblical morality although the concept will parallel the Bible, but I'm talking about you not jumping out of the plane unless you have a parachute and are prepared to land. Not as they teach today that "well, kids are going to screw, that's just kids, so since you can't stop the kids from screwing each other you'ld better show them how to put on a teather line so they stay "safe" while they're jumping out of the plane. God help them if the teather line (condom) breaks.So teach the awesome responsibility of the need for pre natal care and raising and infant and place emphasis on waiting on sex until you are ready to handle the chain of events that occurs after the sweat has dried. Again, unrealistic and will never happen in our public school system.As far as anyone thinking I have a halo, when my wife was pregnant for our 2nd child, my son named Isaac, he was actually supposed to be a twin. Unfortunatly, his brother/sister had gotton hung up in the fallopian tube and had to be removed/terminated/aborted. So Isaac was no longer a twin. You wanna know what a horrible gut wrentching experience that was and still is. Even now that he's almost 2 I still think about the other twin and what might have been and sometimes I can even imagine the other twin playing with us together. So in a way I've participated in ending a life and even though the act fit the bill of a nessessary procedure to save my wife's life and my son's, I still feel sick about it.So I'm not condeming anyone for having an abortion - for any reason as some have said because I have a "Halo" on. Hell, I'm no better than the Green River Guy that toasted the 58 women. My dark side has never manefested itself (thanks evolution) just like the vast majority of tax payers in this country have never manifested theirs, but I still recognize I'm no better because of it (although much safer a neighbor to live next to).My arguement lies in the act of trying to judge one act - abortion as good in some cases but the similiar act of euthenizing as bad in all cases. Either embrace all human life as sacred or cut loose with the concept and focus on the good of society as a whole and de-emphasize the rights of individual life just like the ants and monarch butterflies. I can't understand why that's so hard if we are only evolved forms of these common life forms with a few million years of DNA trial and error the only separating factor.Those were 2 very good but very tough questions and I've probably not really answered either one of them sufficiently for you.[This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 11-10-2003]

It's more than what it is at the time it's aborted. Everyone in the abortion room knows that you are ending a human life outside the natural bounds of it's survival potential. So if it doesn't reach a certain stage of developement it's of little importance as far as the act, it just either lessens or heightens the reality in our minds the closer the human gets to reaching a recognizable life sustaining form outside the womb.Let's say that you embarked on building a really bomb 15 meter competition sailing vessel. You went through all of the time to aquire the materials, extra man power, resources and facilities. Let's say you and your team start to assemble the ship. It goes slow at first because it's extremely critical to set the keel beam and mark the rib joints perfect so the thing will track straight in open seas. Say I come along and not only burn down the crude skeleton of your boat but I destroy the building you are working out of, forcing you to completely start over and you had just started the boat 2 weeks ago.Now lets say that I wait for 7 months before I come in and destroy your boat and building. Which of the 2 times did I destroy your boat? Which time will you suffer great loss from? Which time will set you back and potentially jeapordize your goal. Which one will taint your perception of the joy of boat building?Of course if I wait until the seventh month to burn your boat, you had more time to get to know your project but on both instances you lost a boat. It's a crude example but I believe you are on to the point I'm trying to make.Now on the other hand, if all you had were the materials and the facilities, but you never were able to meet up with the material, then there was never a boat, just potential. But as soon as you take the first step and take the first few pieces of wood and lay out the keel beam - well there's your boat and you would get very angry if I came in and cut your keel in half with a chain saw, and then burned down your building. I just destroyed your boat.

So there's really no pro-life either, it's pro-anti choice? It's a black and white issue when you look at the stats that have been posted on this thread. The majority are done for reasons other than life threatening issues. So if everything should be done to prevent abortion means that 21% of the women who abort need more money, 15% need more reassurance that it's going to be OK, 13% need to be told that they will be mentally fine. No, not quite.You are either Pro- let the baby live or Pro let the baby be killed if that's the host unit's desire. Pro Life or Pro Abortion. But see, you don't like the sound of Pro Abortion because that sounds cold and cutting and to the point, in your face, lets end a life- severved up helping of reality. Pro Choice sounds really much better like a choice of auto's or a choice of soda drinks or a choice of chewing tobacco or a choice of options concerning a womens health issues. Yeah that's much more palatable.I had a very "separate the wheat from the chaff" professor who liked to always say "If you use enough honey, you can make dog shit palatable". But dress it up all you want, to the human that's being knitted together in the womb, weather a women is exploring her right to chose her options for her own personal health issues, or it's another pro abortion action taking place, the end result is the same.See, someone who is pro-life might switch over and become pro-abortion if an unpleasant situation happens to them. It's by far the easier way out of an uncomfortable excursion. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be so popular. But you will never see anyone who is pro abortion become a pro life proponent because that is like climbing back up a vertical wall that's covered with motor oil. At best they chose to ignore or never discuss the topic again.You also said that there are no bonofide pro abortion people out there. Go to an abortion clinic and see the numbers of girls going in to them. Do think that if the people working in there after a few months of doing assembly line abortions really cared about these girls they would continue? Come on. If they really cared and viewed abortion as a safety net to stop desparate girls from having back alley abortions they would step back and say "Wait a minute". This is getting out of control, we need to stop this at the source because this is not just saving a few desparates from back alleys, this is becoming wholesale carnage". Of course they're not going to. The abortion industry is highly profitable for those who are in it, so don't think for a minute if it comes between pay dirt or play pen these people will take the "high road".Hell no my man, not when there's BMW's and West Bay Sonships and vacation villas to be had.Again, press on with pride with the abortion industry, but let's stop confusing the issue. We need to change our society's idea about the value of any human life so we can have a uniform code of conduct, single minded goal for the human race instead of moral rights and wrongs that can wavier with each administration change. Either all human life is sacred or none of it is. When you make out the rules as you go, people get confused, division lines get formed and nations such as ours gets dragged down. Personally I wish that our leaders would step up to the plate, come out and say that because we are an evolved being, as long as the human race survives in some form, individule life is of no consequence or importance so let's have at it. Like it or detest it, at least we'd all be on the same page and we could support our stance by evoultion and mathmatics which, in it's purest form has no emotions, feelings or biases.We are taught in school that we are an evolved state of billions of acidents that have arose by chance over millions of years as the laws of mathmatics and the dynamics of chaos exert their force. So what is so wrong with saying you are pro abortion if it's just another glob of DNA and if you terminate that chain of events, the minerals with just be recycled into some other thing. Nothing more. Why do people all of a sudden bring emotion into it instead of just calling it like it is. Because weather you or I live or die or are aborted, we're just another glob of DNA resopnding to enviornment and randomness. Nothing more.Good night all, I'll check this post in the morning. I now have to take my glob of DNA upstairs and give another glob of DNA that I refer to as my son Isaac a horsey back ride before he lays down to recharge the chemical stasis of his amino acids. Then if by random chance, biolgical definition, mathmatical probability and chaos dynamic consequence my knees are still attached, I'm going to watch 22 men who desparatly are in need of rest, perform for 80,000 people who are in desparate need of excersise. (Monday Night Football)[This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 11-10-2003]

To the first part of the question I'll stand on what I said that once the egg has been fertilized by male sperm then it's technically a human being at that point. It's not a grown-up, teen ager, adolecent, toddler or infant, just a newly developing human being.I'll base my own criteria on this by watching to see how the woman's own body reacts to the fertilization event. As soon as that happens, her own chemistry starts to change very abbruptly and different hormones begin to be secreted to perform all sorts of functions to enhance the enviorment to maximize chances for the developing human to make it to birth.You can by an EPD at any drug store for $8.00 and it can tell you with astounding accuracy (the exact stats I admit I don't have) that the homone levels have changed radically in the blood stream, so much so that it's detectable in the urine. The hormone changes corrolate to what the women's body is trying to accomplish in maximizing chances for survival so if the body is saying that it is a developing human almost imediatly, then my own judgement would parellel.Chop my logic to bits but it doesn't change the sequence of events imidiatly after fertilization, and the body doesn't debate what to do next using intelect, just chemistry.

I had to skip the questions because the war department called down and said it was dinner time.Point well taken on the delay of the body to determine what is happening to itself. I don't know much about the use of EPT's as you correctly state, just what I've seen on the TV adds and what my wife has said which isn't worthy of incorporating here.

The answer to you third question is since the women are going to abort anyway, sure lets make it as safe and pleasant as posible. The best face we can display as decent humans is to show these women more concern for them then they have for their unborn. (Boy that's going to get a firestorm response from a certain poster in this thread)The answer to your second question is impossible for me to answer because if the DNA is really a blueprint for designing something that is as highly functioning as the human brain, capable of self awareness, then you are implying that DNA is and instruction language, and all languages must be based on a context. To have context you need an infussion of intelligence and that implies a grand design. I know that you are not a creationist so I don't think you can highlight the humanity issue here fairly and tie it in to morality without first addressing the issue of how we got from the proverbial pool of slime to self awareness and humanity by accident.I'm laughing as I type because I just did to you what my Dad always does to me by answering my question with a question. I don't mean to do this to you and if you get mad at me it's cool. I very much understand.

No, I'm not Superman. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.You are really trying way too hard to make me look stupid. I think I can do the job well enough on my own thank you. But I did not say that I personally have the ability to know the exact moment when a womon concieves. If I could pull that off, I'd be posting in a medical forum this evening instead.

I am not the type of person that would make light of anyone's circumstance nor do I condem anyone for having an abortion for any reason as I've stated before. I'm not in their shoes so I am not in a position to pass judgement, nor is that my job or place to do so anyway. I know that there are thousands upon thousands of horror stories out there concerning abuse, rape and flat out bad luck and stupidity. My wife and I played it stupid ourselves and didn't wait till we were married. We never got pregnant though but that was pure fate and no result of either of us doing anything responsible about it. I liked what I saw and selfishly put my pleasures above displaying responsibility and respect towards her but that's subject matter for a different audience.So would we have aborted if we had gotton pregnant before we were married. No, but that has to do with the way both of us were raised. If we had been raised with a more contempory set of values and had become pregnant prematurely, well then we probably would have employed those contempory values and had an abortion for convienence. So Mr Hambre is more correct than he even knows about my hypocracy and he doesn't know the half of it.As far as your second question, I don't think it's wrong to remove a damaged spleen after an accident and if that is equivilent to aborting a fetus, then you've got me on logic and you win. I'm looking at my driver's licience and it says that I'm an organ doner so "Holy Crap Batman!", I guess I'm just dyin' to have a male equivelent abortion and I didn't even know it!! Time for me to face some demons tonight.Dandelions on the other hand - hands off those Lions. You pluck one of them out from your yard and the next day, 60 bazillion thousand million of his friends show up in your lawn for the funeral. Honestly, plant life doesn't play in the same moral ring in my world as unborn babies.Well, Playmakers is on ESPN now and I missed last weeks episode due to the ffact that I was at a conference in Texas all last week so I'll check this post manyana. Have a good evening all.Before you judge a man you should walk a mile in his shoes. This way you are a mile from him, and you have his shoes.