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Author Topic:   Young earth creationism is valid and the macroevolutionary hypothesis is not valid
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 316 (90315)
03-04-2004 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by kendemyer
03-04-2004 2:37 PM


Re: To: schrafinator
Actually, molecular biology is providing more and more evidence how abiogenesis may have occurred.
No one doubts that some of the places and some of the people and maybe some of the events described in the Bible actually existed or happened. But there is no evidence that any of the major stories occurred the way the Bible says that they did.
From the link:
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics describes basic principles familiar in everyday life. It is partially a universal law of decay; the ultimate cause of why everything ultimately falls apart and disintegrates over time.
As someone with some training in physics, I can say that this is not the second law of thermodynamics. How much do you really know about the second law? Here is a test on the second law of thermodynamics. Why don't you look at it yourself and tell us how much you really know about it? By the way, I already know the answers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by kendemyer, posted 03-04-2004 2:37 PM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 316 (90380)
03-04-2004 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by kendemyer
03-04-2004 7:21 PM


Ah, kendemyer
quote:
If you wish to state that somehow sunlight causes lizards to grow hollow bones that make them less fit....
You still show very little sign of understanding any basic science. We can't help you if you don't ask questions. Your profile says you are a manager. Just what, pray tell, can one manage with such an abysmally low knowledge of science and lack of logic skills?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by kendemyer, posted 03-04-2004 7:21 PM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 316 (90636)
03-05-2004 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by kendemyer
03-05-2004 4:49 PM


check the topic of this thread
It's about young earth creationism vs. macroevolution.
There is ample evidence that life has evolved from earlier species over three and a half billion years.
We have the heirarchical classification of life.
We have a multitude of compelling fossils showing the lineages of many species, including humans.
We have the biochemical and molecular evidence.
Also, the proposed mechanisms for macroevolution are known and understood.
You have yet to dispute any of this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by kendemyer, posted 03-05-2004 4:49 PM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 316 (90655)
03-05-2004 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by kendemyer
03-05-2004 5:28 PM


Who's running?
What are you babbling about now, kendemyer? No one knows (yet) how the first life form began. So what? Is there something specific about current abiogenesis research that you don't understand? Some people here know something about it, so they might be able to help you out.
I don't know how the first life form came about. So what? We have a lot of evidence that life began three and a half billion years ago, and that present life has evolved from this.
Do you want to discuss this?
Edited to add:
And why do you keep switching topics? Why can't you stay focused? You give the impression that you don't understand very much about this subject.
[This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 03-05-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by kendemyer, posted 03-05-2004 5:28 PM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 316 (90679)
03-05-2004 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by kendemyer
03-05-2004 6:38 PM


You're babbling again.
What are you talking about now?
You began this thread to dispute that macroevolution is not a valid scientific theory. Please back up your assertian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by kendemyer, posted 03-05-2004 6:38 PM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 316 (90858)
03-06-2004 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by kendemyer
03-02-2004 1:01 PM


The fossil record is great evidence for ToE
Okay, kendemeyer, you want someone to talk about the fossil record, so I will try. Most of this post is a short essay that I sometimes paste into message boards; I may have already pasted it here - sorry if this is a repeat.
The quotes that you provide, kedemyer, are either out of date or taken out of context. In actual fact, the fossil record is excellent evidence of Darwinian evolution.
The fossil record is full of transitional forms. We believe that species have evolved from previous species, and so we should see in the fossil record evidence of species that show evidence of having characteristics between modern species and previous species.
This is exactly what we see. The most wonderfully complete record of evolution is that of human beings from an early bipedal ape.
In this graphic we have examples of skulls from purported human ancestors. Skull A is a modern chimpanzee - it is shown to demonstrate how Skull B, from an Austalopethicine, is very ape-like and definitely not human. Skull N is modern human. Note that the skulls in between show a very smooth transition between B to N, without any gaps. It is also true that the skulls are dated to the correct times. This is predicted by evolution.
Kathleen Hunt has written a short article listing in detail transitional forms between different major groups of animals. In particle, there is a particularly detailed list of species showing the transition from reptiles to mammals. Note that these species, found as fossils, show the correct intermediate steps and are found in strata with the proper ages. It is interesting to note that we see the transformation of the reptilian jaw joint into the mammalian inner ear, which is something creationists always insisted was impossible.
Fossils have also been discovered that give a nice series of transitionals between land mammals and modern whales.
Another interesting website is the Palaeos site. It also contains some really cool cladograms. Start here at Sarcopterygii, the group of fish that include the ancestors of modern tetrapods (and so is the clade that contains tetropods). Scroll to the bottom of the cladogram and click on Reptilomorpha. Note if you scroll to the bottom there is Synapsida (although the link is actually in the box at the top of the page). At the bottom of this cladograms is the Mammalia (again, the actual link is in the box at the top). Scroll down. Congatulations: you have just gone through the entire evolutionary history of fish to modern mammals. Every name you saw on the cladogram represents an actual fossil species, carefully placed in the proper place in the cladogram based on age and a careful description of its morphology! Look at the really nice descriptions of the fossils; one of the best is a section on one of the proto-mammals, Morganucontidae. The descriptions show, I hope, that these phylogenic trees, and the claim that these fossils are transitionals, aren't arbitrary - they have exactly the right characteristics to be place where they are in the phylogenic trees, and they have the right "in-betweenness" to count as transitionals between two different groups of animals.
So, in this respect, a prediction of evolution is born out in the fossil record. Can creationism explain these transitions, beyond simply saying that the creator simply created all these species because of whimsy? For instance, right now there is very little fossil evidence that link bats to their non-flying ancestors. My evolutionist prediction is that if and when these fossils are discovered, they will clearly link bats with more primitive tree dwelling mammals, distantly related to primates. No transitionl fossils will be found that are "in-between" bats and birds. What predictions can creationism make? Does belief a creator necessarily imply that such fossils will be found? If evolution predicts them, and creationism makes no predictions, what will it mean if and when such fossils are found?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by kendemyer, posted 03-02-2004 1:01 PM kendemyer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by kendemyer, posted 03-07-2004 2:00 AM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 316 (90943)
03-07-2004 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by kendemyer
03-07-2004 2:00 AM


Re: The fossil record is great evidence for ToE
Kendemyer, you are avoiding the issue.
First, look at the line of skulls. There is a clear gradual transformation from an obvious ape skull to modern humans. The difference between any two adjacent skulls is less than the difference between skulls that creationists accept as human. You want evidence for evolution. This is it. How does creationists explain these obvious transitionals? Did God create everyone of these species, thereby making hard to tell the difference between "ape-kind" and "human-kind"? Are all these skulls part of "human-kind", so that some ancient humans were indistinguishabe from apes? Hiding behind out-of-context quotes is not going to get you off the hook - it is just going to make you look bad.
And you haven't even said anything about any of the other examples I provided. Your initial claim is that there is no evidence in the fossil record for evolution. I have provided several different examples to show that your claim is false; there are clear examples of evolutionary lineages in the fossil record verifying evolution as a correct explanation for the history of life. And as more fossils are discovered, the "gaps" that creationists keep talking about keep disappearing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by kendemyer, posted 03-07-2004 2:00 AM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 316 (90949)
03-07-2004 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by kendemyer
03-07-2004 2:05 PM


Re: re: whales
Oops. I posted this link in the wrong thread. It belongs here.
Moral: don't trust AiG.
Hmm. Just posting links doesn't seem very fun to me. Wouldn't you like to actually discuss something, kendemeyer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by kendemyer, posted 03-07-2004 2:05 PM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 316 (90953)
03-07-2004 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by kendemyer
03-07-2004 2:14 PM


Please explain the Second Law, kendemeyer.
From the linked article:
All observed cases in which complex things are derived from less complex things demand an already existing machine that is at least as complex as that which it produces.
This is false.
A complex adult human being starts out as a single cell at conception. There is no machine involved.
Kendemeyer, what do you know about the second law of thermodynamics? Can you state why the second law precludes evolution? Before you answer this, please tell us what you know about the second law of thermodynamics. In particular, please try to answer these questions. I have some physics training, and I can say I see no contradiction between the second law and evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by kendemyer, posted 03-07-2004 2:14 PM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 316 (90955)
03-07-2004 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by kendemyer
03-07-2004 2:14 PM


back to the original topic
Kendemeyer,
please explain why the examples I provided of transitional fossils are not good evidence for evolution.
Providing a link to AiG is not good enough.
[This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 03-07-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by kendemyer, posted 03-07-2004 2:14 PM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 316 (90980)
03-07-2004 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by kendemyer
03-07-2004 4:56 PM


Re: second law and earth being a open system
Kendemyer, you fraud, you clearly don't understand the first thing about the second law of thermodynamics. I doubt you even understand the pseudo-argument in your link.
Please explain, in your words, why the fossil record does not provide good evidence for evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by kendemyer, posted 03-07-2004 4:56 PM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 316 (91011)
03-07-2004 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by kendemyer
03-07-2004 6:46 PM


Re: To: ASGARA
But this begs the question, "Why can't the evolutionists do the same and pick on creationism?".
Because creationism is so empty there is nothing to pick on.
After all is said and done, the macroevolution hypothesis truly is a hypothesis in crises.
Really? With all the evidence that supports it? Again, why is the fossil record not good evidence in favor of evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by kendemyer, posted 03-07-2004 6:46 PM kendemyer has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 316 (91170)
03-08-2004 3:24 PM


Oh, kendemyer, come out an play!
Kendemyer, please explain your understanding as to why the fossil record is not good evidence for the evolution of species.

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 316 (91838)
03-11-2004 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by kendemyer
03-11-2004 7:08 PM


Re: To: Lindum
Hello, kendemyer. It's good to see that you're back.
quote:
The materialist cannot avoid the implications that his/her macroevolutionary hypothesis is built upon the swamp of the abiogenesis hypothesis.
As I stated before, the foundation for any science is the evidence in favor of it. The theory of evolution is built on the lots and lots of independent evidence that points to it as the most rational explanation for what we see in biology and geology.
One example of the evidence is the fossil record. The fossil record, as I posted provides some very good evidence in favor of evolution. You responded thus:
TO: Chiroptera
I believe there are at least 250,000 species in the fossil record and over 100 million fossils in Natural Museums. I also know that compared to the total amount of fossils and species currently discovered there is a handful of controversial "missing links." In short, I think the fossil record shows creationism.
I don't know where you got your numbers, but they aren't too relevant. Would you like to provide some sort of missing link that you think is significant? As it turns out, there are so many transitionals known in so many lineages.
That there may be some gaps isn't so surprising - it is very hard for fossils to form. That we have any fossils at all is probably because of the immense amount of time in geologic history. Wait long enough, and a rare event, like fossilization, is bound to occur.
That said, there is an immense number of transitional fossils known. Look at the picture of the ape-to-human skulls again. Creationists for over a hundred years pointed out the lack of "missing links" between humans and apes, and yet now the links are known. The skulls, and the associated skeletons, form a gradually transformation between non-human apes (albeit, ones that are bipedal) and modern humans. Are each of these skulls a different "kind"? Why would the creator create species that would fill in the gaps like this? Or is only two kinds? Where would you draw the line between the two? Why would God make the extreme of one kind so much like the extreme of the other?
And what about the whale transitionals? These fossils have the characteristics predicted by evolutionists before they were found. Why would God create "kinds" that could be placed in the gaps between modern whales and ancient mesonychids? Why not really screw us all up by creating "kinds" that could be interpreted to show a link between whales directly to fish? That would be interesting.
The fact is, there are too many well-attested evolutionary lines in the fossil record. The number of "missing" links continue to get smaller and smaller.
There is now the possibility that the "link" between modern humans and modern apes has been found (although my understanding is that this has yet to undergo peer-review). Whether you find this evidence convincing or not, why were these fossils, with the right amount of "in-betweeness" found? Why would God create species that look "in-between" major groups?
By the way, I see that you are busy in a number of conversations. I will understand if you feel you are unable to continue this one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by kendemyer, posted 03-11-2004 7:08 PM kendemyer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by kendemyer, posted 03-11-2004 8:26 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 316 (92293)
03-13-2004 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by kendemyer
03-13-2004 6:40 PM


Look at the bones! - Tim the Magician
Kendemyer, the earth is old, and life has a very ancient history. There is plenty of evidence to that fact. I tried to present to you some of the evidence - you have not yet adequately respond to it, but seeing how busy you are in several threads I don't hold that against you. But the evidence is there, and nothing that you say about abiogenesis will erase that evidence. If you want to disprove evolution or to cast doubt to its validity, you must deal with the evidence that does exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by kendemyer, posted 03-13-2004 6:40 PM kendemyer has not replied

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