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Author | Topic: Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins | |||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Im not gonna judge you by typical Christian criteria, but let me ask you something, Buzz. How much of your theological influence has been because of association with Jehovahs Witnesses? Do you consider yourself a Witness? (In the sense of belonging to a Kingdom Hall body?) The reason that I ask is the type of responses that you give to theological questions are similar to those that I have heard from Jehovahs witnesses.... PB, I regularly attend a 7th Day Baptist church which worships on the Biblical sabbath rather than the first day. I believe my oft reference to the proper name of Jehovah which is stated over 600 times in the OT early manuscripts and my Biblical understanding of how the trinity functions according to the common NT references to God and his son you are arriving at the wrong conclusions. I have never been in a JW assembly meeting of any kind but do refute them when visited by them to to the point that they avoid confrontation with me.I can understand how you might ask, but I suggest you focus on addressing my statements as you have been doing a good job of so far rather than reading into them what is not there.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Sorry I prejudged you, Buzz. I will continue to discuss theology with you confidant, now, that you know more than I thought you did!
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I don't think it is reasonable to compare the Biblical account of Jesus with Historical accounts of Israel. To be fair you would need to compare the Biblical accounts concerning each. Biblical Israel did see itself as a suffering servant. The suffering theme of Israel is throughout the OT. Their adversities were frequently compared to sickness. So I would still say that Isaiah as a whole reflects how Israel saw itself and not how the life of Jesus was depicted, as a whole, in the NT. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Come on now, it is very typical of the Jewish writing of the timeperiod to refer to Israel as a person, and a servent. Read it in context.
That is the trouble with Christians who claim Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus, they don't read the context.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Of course, the famous mistranslation of Psalm 22.
"They pierced my hands and my feet" is an incorrect translation. The phrase "k'ari" is "like a lion" -- i.e. "a band of evildoers has surrounded me, like a lion, (at) my hands and feet," and indeed, lions are mentioned elsewhere in that Psalm.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
No, none of the verse is 'Right' with jesus, unless you assume it is, and use the mistranslation.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Just out of curiousity, what great source has enlightened you with the "correct" translation? Are you saying that the NKJV, NIV, and other translations are incorrect? What source or what Bible are you thus claiming to be correctly translated? I have seen numerous commentaries that affirm the accuracy of NIV etc....
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The Bible did not write itself, therefore it cannot contradict itself. But I cannot say the same for its various authors, scribes, editors, etc. IMO the OT is written by Hebrews, for Hebrews, about Hebrews. They recorded their past, present and possible future as seen through their eyes. We see the religous/political trials and tribulations of a culture, which changed through the ages as cultures tend to do. It is not a contradiction for a culture/society to change over time. For example: In the early history of the United States, slavery was legal and acceptable to most. Over time that changed and today slavery is illegal in the US, which is a good change. Our history books record these events and how the changes came about. Now if our culture tries to go back and change the past records and say that slavery was never condoned and tries to explain away any texts that say otherwise, then we have problems and contradictions. My theory is that Leviticus was not written in the desert, but is a sacrifical system that developed after the exile. Message 68 & Message 71 Unfortunately, it appears that the culture after the exile tried to upgrade their past stories and writings to reconcile with their present way of living, which can cause contradictions and anachronisms. IMO this is when the rabbis started building the "fence" around the Torah so that they wouldn't accidently offend God again. Hopefully this will give you an idea of how I view the Bible. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Thanks, brother PB. This oft acknowledgement of God's proper name which is supported by early manuscript but not common among mainstream fundamentalists, is just another case where buz does not walk in lockstep. This may sometimes provoke thought and influence people, but does not make one popular with the majority.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Why, the HEBREW is correct of course.
If you read the Jewish publication society, that would probably be the closest to the original hebrew.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die." David committed adultery and had the husband killed. He admitted his guilt, but didn't make a sacrifice for atonement. Nathan said he was forgiven. Now for the above intentional sins, the penalty should have been instant death.No death and no sin offering, but there was forgiveness. Doesn't follow the laws in Leviticus. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
So, it astonishes you that a King can get away with things a normal person can't??
What would King Henry the 8th ever think of you?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Not really, since they probably made the rules. But it does give a little more credence to my theory that Leviticus was written closer to the second temple period than at Mt. Sinai. Which would also mean that the detailed laws of sin sacrifice were not given at Mt. Sinai.
Deuteronomy 1:17 You are not to show favoritism when judging, but give equal attention to the small and to the great. No matter how a person presents himself, don't be afraid of him; because the decision is God's. The case that is too hard for you, bring to me and I will hear it.' Deuteronomy 16:19 You are not to distort justice or show favoritism, and you are not to accept a bribe, for a gift blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of even the upright. Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. James 2:9 But if you show favoritism, your actions constitute sin, since you are convicted under the Torah as transgressors. So the possibility exists that 1) the laws of Leviticus (as we know them) were not in place at that time, or 2) God does show favoritism. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
actually, I don't see any evidence that that exodus happened at all.
I suspect that you are right, that the leviticus was written around the time of 2 kings (when, these 'old scrolls' were found in the temple.. which amazingly enough gave the current set of priests power as the spokemen from god). Many of the restrictions appear to be what the religous ceremonies were for competing religions in that area. Amazing.. god give the exact restrictions so that people can participate in other religions ceremonies.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3486 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Really flys in the face of
Deuteronomy 12:4 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way. Pickin and choosin apparently not a new theme. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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