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Author
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Topic: God is cruel
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 277 of 301 (304337)
04-14-2006 10:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 272 by jar
04-14-2006 8:00 PM
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Re: knowing GOD's voice?
So far you have not shown any reason that knowing his voice would enable them to know right from wrong. Please explain that? Oh for heaven's sake. God is good. God is truth. God cannot lie. Whatever God says is right. If you know His voice and obey Him you cannot go wrong. This ought to be obvious. Adam and Eve were in intimate communication with God before the Fall. They were spiritually intact. It was after the Fall that they lost the ability to discern His presence or His voice, even trying to hide from Him. They had been told not to eat of the fruit. Only wilful disobedience would have led them to that. They would certainly know the serpent's voice was not the voice of God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 272 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 8:00 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 281 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 10:59 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 278 of 301 (304338)
04-14-2006 10:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 273 by Percy
04-14-2006 8:39 PM
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Re: How to know right from wrong?
Faith seems certain it could only be ego. You seem certain it could only be lack of knowledge. In the midst of so much Biblical ambiguity, so much certainty seems unwarranted. There is no ambiguity. The desire to be like God is what led Eve to eat the fruit. There is nothing ambiguous about understanding that her motive was pride, the desire to be like God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 273 by Percy, posted 04-14-2006 8:39 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 300 by Percy, posted 04-15-2006 7:03 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 279 of 301 (304339)
04-14-2006 10:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 267 by Percy
04-14-2006 5:53 PM
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Re: Just more assertions.
Is ego really the only possibility? Aren't greed, lust for power, curiousity, thirst for knowledge, desire for wisdom, admiration for God that made her want to be like God, etc, also possibilities? Many shades of the above, no doubt, I'm simply emphasizing ego because that is obviously implicit in her desire to be equal with God and most of your list are simply versions of ego anyway. Whatever her motive it was clearly sin, clearly disobedience of a direct command of God's, and put herself in competition with God. For jar's interpretation to be true -- his insistence that they were innocently ignorant and therefore could not sin, he has to find God in the wrong for punishing them, which is completely at odds with the whole scriptural message. He is painting an evil God. This message has been edited by Faith, 04-14-2006 10:58 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 267 by Percy, posted 04-14-2006 5:53 PM | | Percy has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 280 of 301 (304342)
04-14-2006 10:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 274 by Heathen
04-14-2006 8:48 PM
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That's OK. I'm sure some day you'll find God to be every bit as cruel as you now think He is.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 274 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 8:48 PM | | Heathen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 288 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 11:44 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 282 of 301 (304345)
04-14-2006 11:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 281 by jar
04-14-2006 10:59 PM
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Re: knowing GOD's voice?
The knowledge of good and evil is not equivalent to knowing right from wrong. That is your own gloss on the story. They knew no evil because they had perfection in Eden, and were in perfect harmony with God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 281 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 10:59 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 283 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 11:10 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 284 of 301 (304350)
04-14-2006 11:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 283 by jar
04-14-2006 11:10 PM
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What the commentators say
Jamieson Fausset and Brown: tree of the knowledge of good and evil--so called because it was a test of obedience by which our first parents were to be tried, whether they would be good or bad, obey God or break His commands. Matthew Henry: [2.] There was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so called, not because it had any virtue in it to beget or increase useful knowledge (surely then it would not have been forbidden), but, First, Because there was an express positive revelation of the will of God concerning this tree, so that by it he might know moral good and evil. What is good? It is good not to eat of this tree. What is evil? It is evil to eat of this tree. The distinction between all other moral good and evil was written in the heart of man by nature; but this, which resulted from a positive law, was written upon this tree. Secondly, Because, in the event, it proved to give Adam an experimental knowledge of good by the loss of it and of evil by the sense of it. As the covenant of grace has in it, not only Believe and be saved, but also, Believe not and be damned (Mk. 16:16), so the covenant of innocency had in it, not only "Do this and live,’’ which was sealed and confirmed by the tree of life, but, "Fail and die,’’ which Adam was assured of by this other tree: "Touch it at your peril;’’ so that, in these two trees, God set before him good and evil, the blessing and the curse, Deu. 30:19. These two trees were as two sacraments. Guzik: ... it may very well be that it is called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil not so that man would know good and evil, but so that God could test good and evil in man This message has been edited by Faith, 04-14-2006 11:25 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 283 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 11:10 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 286 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 11:39 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 285 of 301 (304352)
04-14-2006 11:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 283 by jar
04-14-2006 11:10 PM
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Their nakedness
The following is David Guzik's commentary on the meaning of their seeing their nakedness, which is pretty much in line with the others I looked at. Nakedness is a concept in scripture that is about our sinful nature's being exposed to condemnation. "Covering" is about our sins being forgiven. When we are saved we are "clothed" in Christ's righteousness. It is like the Israelites in Egypt having the blood of the lamb painted on their door frames, a covering of sorts to protect them from the avenging angels of judgment. (It is also no doubt what the common dream of being naked in public is all about.) It is not so much about nakedness per se as about exposure to judgment, though as Guzik points out, something must have changed in the physical sense too when they disobeyed.
2. (7) The nakedness of Adam and Eve a. Seemingly, it was only after the sin of Adam that they knew of their sinful state; they knew that they were naked, in the sense of having their shame exposed to all creation b. Psalm 104:2 and Matthew 17:2 suggest that light can be a garment for the righteous. It may be that Adam and Eve were previously clothed in God's glorious light, and the immediate loss of this covering of light left them feeling so exposed i. "It is more than probable that they were clothed in light before the fall, and when they sinned the light went out." (Barnhouse) c. But there was also a change in the way they saw things; the eyes of both of them were opened. Adam and Eve saw the world differently after the fall. Everything must have looked so much worse! i. Was it good or bad that Adam and Eve saw their nakedness and felt terrible about it? It was good, because it is good to feel guilty when you have done something wrong d. Their own attempt to cover themselves took much ingenuity, but not much wisdom; fig leaves are said to have a prickly quality that would make for some pretty itchy coverings i. Every attempt to cover our own nakedness before God is just as foolish. We need to let Jesus cover us (Revelation 3:5, 18), and put on Jesus Himself as our covering garment (Galatians 3:27). The exhortation from Jesus is for us: Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. (Revelation 16:15) ii. Obviously, they covered their genital areas. In virtually all cultures, adults cover their genital areas, even though other parts of the human body may be more or less exposed from culture to culture iii. This is not because there is something intrinsically "dirty" in our sexuality, but because we have both received our fallenness and pass it on genetically - through sexual reproduction. Because of this, God has implanted it in the minds of man that more modesty is appropriate for these areas of our body
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 283 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 11:10 PM | | jar has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 287 of 301 (304355)
04-14-2006 11:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 286 by jar
04-14-2006 11:39 PM
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Re: What the commentators say
Sorry but frankly your views are the mental gymnastics, simply to justify your own idiosyncratic misreading of the scripture.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 286 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 11:39 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 293 by jar, posted 04-15-2006 12:08 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 289 of 301 (304357)
04-14-2006 11:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 288 by Heathen
04-14-2006 11:44 PM
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It's been countered. That's the point.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 288 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 11:44 PM | | Heathen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 290 by Heathen, posted 04-14-2006 11:52 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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