A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)

Also, dogs are animals. They act on instinct and on what they are taught. If the person being bitten caused the dog to bite them, it's their own fault. If the dog bit for no reason, it's the owner's fault.

anneFirst off before I start thank you for the short alias in small letters.Now on to the arguement. I am an atheist.When I attack a point in the bible I do it with the express purpose of revealing the contradictions.Here we have you saying that unbelievers say god is evil when the bible also has the same statement as found in this verse. God CREATES evil. Did you miss it? So if god creates evil then all evil is his creation.By implication then all evil is his responsibility.This is the bible making this statement not I.That you would support such is not my concern.What concerns me is that the belief in god as the creator of evil leaves the door open to people justifying savagery in the name of the bible.I do indeed hold the view that evil does not exist.However I mean that in the sense that evil is not a noun{an indicator of existence} but a verb{an action of choice};not an entity but a choice fully the responsibilty of the one who excercises the choice to implement it.We cannot escape our responsibility and as an atheist I would deplore a child murderer and likely not be particularly merciful of the one who commits such a crime.In fact, I doubt very much if the child were mine that the one who commited the crime could hope that mercy would be dealt him by myself because I would inflict suffering that he could not imagine in his worst nightmare.I do sincerely think that I would sacrifice all claim to civilized behaviour in such a case.You are chistian but I am old school.Is that too dodgy for you or is there something vague in what I just stated?

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"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

Charles Knight has already covered most of what I wanted to say but cant you see the contradiction here? God lets evil acts happens out of love? Why doesn't he shower us with puppies/kittens or candy out of love? If there was a choice between loving someone who gave me a kitten vs. loving someone who put me in the hospital I know who I'd choose.This message has been edited by DrJones*, 11-21-2004 09:49 PM

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*not an actual doctor

Think of it this way. God allows evil to happen to show us a glimpse of what waits for us when we die and choose the devil. God also gives us miracles and blessings, but they are things unseen by most due to the media. Would you choose to go to a place a thousand times worse than earth? Or would you choose a place a million times better than earth?

In this hypotheical situation yeah I'd choose heaven. But that doesnt explain why a supposedly loving and benevolent god would use evil instead of love to send us a message. Instead of giving us a glimpse of hell and scaring us to his side, why doesnt he give us a glimpse of heaven so that we choose him out of love and not fear. Using fear to influence us is the tactic of a bully. Yes the "media" covers up the miracles, tell me another one.

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*not an actual doctor

I meant that the media only shows bad things that happen. Rarely do they talk about the amazing survivors of a crash or how a pair of attached twins survived their seperation. God does show us Heaven. He gives us people that we love and that love us. He gives us great people and those who show mercy.

I've got to ask 1) How old are you ? 2) you do realise that those examples are not meant to be taken in a literal sense?This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 11-22-2004 02:34 AM

OK - you have made a claim about the media covering up miracles, can you provide any evidence to back this claim?

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He allowed evil to be created so that we would choose Him out of free will.

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But is evil really necessary for free will? In most situations, there is more than simply a single good option and a single evil option.Furthermore, by allowing evil, doesn't that jeopardize the free will of those who are victim to it? If you die from someone else's act of evil, hasn't your own chance at free will been significantly hindered?

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It's easier to choose to be evil, though, isn't it?

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I'm not so sure - in many situations, it might be more profitable, but I've found that in the past my conscience bothered the hell out of me even if there was no chance of repercussions, to the point that sometimes I would not be able to focus on anything else without my thoughts wandering back.

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This is the problem with unbelievers - they'll attack the hell out of you for supporting the bible, and say God is evil, yet they'll then say that evil doesn't exist - and a child murderer is not evil.

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You're putting words into our mouths and attacking the resulting straw man. I know that I, for one, have never claimed that evil doesn't exist or that a child murderer isn't evil. Perhaps you are confusing relative morality for lack of morality?In any case, atheists and agnostics are a diverse bunch, and broad statements such as this tend to only describe a certain few.

If that is a miraculous sign from god then it is a very bad, ambiguous one. I see nothing out of the ordinary in every so often someone surviving a crash. Now what WOULD be miraculous is if the crash was averted from happening altogether in such a way as to be definately go against the laws of physics. If that happened often then it would be a great sign that something strange was going on. Now the media definately does report on this when it happens as I remember a case of this recently. I can definately see that some thanks need to be given in a situation like this. Problem is i'd give the thanks to the doctors and other medical staff that made the seperation possible. It was their skill and ingenuity that made it happen.Miracles seem to be on a downward spiral. Take a look in the OT and you'll see miracles aplenty with god directly intervening in the day to day happenings in the word in a very overt and obvious way. Move steadily forwards to the present day and miracles seem to be drying up, until now there are no more overt miracles on display. No more does the sun stand still for several days etc. All we're left with are perfectly possible events that we just so happen to attach a great deal of signifigance to (such as people not dieing).

This is a misrepresentation, Happy_Atheist. There are also long stretches in Biblical history where we see no miracles, just like today, such as the 400 years or so between the last OT prophet and Christ.This message has been edited by YahIsGod, 11-22-2004 05:55 AM

No problem. Ofcourse, it's just my name, so - it wasn't on purpose. Would this not be evil? Would it be justice?If God's wrath was multiplied by one thousand, would it be justice, vengeance, or evil?So then, even you can imagine a circumstance where an evil is just.The Isaiah quote, I really have heard that one so many times at various forums, can we just skip it? No offense, but I'm just bored with dealing with it and no one listens to my answer anyway.Notice anything in that quote that relates to what you would do to a child-murderer?CLue; In which way would God create evil - and in what cirumstance, or for what reason?.......Well - I can *hope* you get my point.---------
Crashfrog; It doesn't matter how debate works - if someone says God is evil, and then they say evil doesn't exist in another thread - how am I supposed to convert to such confused positions?If you're so good at reasoning as an atheist - can you reason why you butt in for no apparent reason other than to boost your male ego?

Well thats all well and good if the devil did in fact exist. But unfortunately the concept of the devil came from ancient babylonian mythololgy that made it's way into Judaism which in turn was adopted by Christian theology. In short the devil is a mythological creature. If the devil does indeed exist perhaps you can provide some verifiable non bias evidence to to support that claim otherwise it is simply more bullshit.

Doesn't detract from the point that I was making...that what was offered as miracles are in fact not good examples.